Green and Bold: Brett Hundley Is Just a Cog in a Broken Wheel
Brett Hundley is just a symptom, not a cause, of what ails the Green Bay Packers.
By mnbruton
Brett Hundley is just a symptom, not a cause, of what ails the Green Bay Packers.
Is it true that in his outing against the Detroit Lions on Monday night, his second NFL start, Hundley did not show the type of growth that two weeks of preparation and rest should have produced?
Yes. Hundley still hasn't lived up to the raw talent and potential he very much possesses, which I discussed optimistically here.
Those who were quick to dismiss Hundley when he came into the game against Minnesota in relief of Aaron Rodgers did so unfairly; we needed to give him a chance to show what he was capable of after working with the first-team offense and running an offensive game plan designed specifically for him.
But Hundley had arguably the best chance he'll have all year to prove himself on Monday against the Lions, coming into the game rested with two weeks to prepare and lining up behind the preferred starting five offensive linemen.
To be troubled that Hundley still didn't show much improvement save for on up-tempo drives in the second half with the Lions in prevent defense is no longer reactionary, but reasonable.
On paper, there is still a lot to like about Hundley. He's athletic and mobile. He knows the Packers' playbook inside and out. He does have good arm strength, though you wouldn't know it from his nearly three games as the Packers' signal-caller this season, in which he's averaging five yards per attempt.
In practice, however, Hundley has some glaring flaws, flaws which extra preparation and experience in real NFL action haven't yet seemed to improve.
One of the reasons Hundley dropped to Round 5 in the 2015 was his demonstrated lack of ability to progress through his reads and his sub-par anticipation at UCLA, and, unfortunately, those areas of his game don't seem to have been remediated by time spent in Mike McCarthy's offseason quarterback school.
23 of Hundley's 38 attempts against Detroit were thrown within five yards of the line of scrimmage, per ESPN Stats & Information via ESPN's Rob Demovsky.
13 of those passes came at or behind the line of scrimmage.
This is not how an NFL-level offense is run...and perhaps Hundley is not an NFL-caliber starter.
But hang on for a moment.
It would be easy to place the loss to the Lions on Hundley's shoulders. But it would also be wrong.
The truth is, Hundley is a cog in an otherwise broken wheel, and his struggles are endemic of a team that seems to be unable to scheme on either side of the ball without Aaron Rodgers around to work his magic and cover for the cracks in the surface of the system.
Only now are we realizing just how deep those cracks might run.
It's not hard to see why McCarthy and offensive coordinator Edgar Bennett's game plan looked to limit Hundley's attempts downfield; he threw four interceptions in his first seven quarters of play.
And even if the Packers did look to open the passing game up under Hundley, it's not clear he possesses the awareness and read ability to find open targets.
I mean, we all (except, apparently, Hundley) saw this:
It's not hard for a defense to dismantle an offense that can only move the ball five yards at a time through the air, and that's exactly what Detroit was able to do.
Speaking of defense, if all that had to change for the Packers heading into Week 10 is a more robust and high-octane game plan from McCarthy, maybe we'd actually see a improved-looking team against the Chicago Bears.
But it's hard to place the onus on the offense when the defense failed so spectacularly, as well.
Sure, one can argue that the offense placed an inordinate amount of strain on the defense by being unable to control the ball (the Packers' time of possession was just 23:05). But the defense couldn't get off the field; the Lions didn't punt once and they scored on all of their eight drives save for a missed field goal and a fumble.
The Packers' complete lack of pass rush made Matthew Stafford look like the season MVP, and it's not for lack of talent. Some will argue that Clay Matthews and Nick Perry's names carry more weight than their performances, but many teams would be happy to have them. The group, including Kyler Fackrell and Chris Odom, is admittedly thin behind them, but then Dom Capers had Vince Biegel at his disposal for the first time all season last night.
The defense, however, is a far more nuanced problem, one that will require multiple draft selections and perhaps even a significant change at the top level to address.
The offense, meanwhile, has too much talent around Hundley to be playing like this.
At this point, the Packers literally don't have anything to lose by letting Hundley loose.
A few costly interceptions could lose them some games, but the way they're currently playing already is.
Comments (95)
TKWorldWide
November 08, 2017 at 06:07 am
Paragraph 13: did you mean “this is not how an NFL-level OFFENSE is run”?
dobber
November 08, 2017 at 07:25 am
You had me at paragraph 13.
TKWorldWide
November 08, 2017 at 12:34 pm
lol
mnbruton
November 08, 2017 at 08:08 am
Yes. Thanks.
Fire_Gute
November 08, 2017 at 06:13 am
Although Jayrone Elliott is doing just as much as many defensive players on this team, he actually has an excuse for not hitting, tackling or sacking anybody being as he's not here anymore. Come on man
Razer
November 08, 2017 at 06:36 am
We have seen this rigidity before as MM struggles to move outside what he knows. Having watched this team for the last decade, I think the only innovation has been the use of back shoulder throws. If Rodgers isn't threading the needle, we are not moving the ball. Mike can't even sustain a run game despite having Rodgers as the hammer. There is little to no creativity. And this extends up to TT who keeps drafting the same type of WR and same type of Jamal Williams runner. How Aaron Jones got on this team is a minor miracle.
So to Michelle's theme, yes there are chronic flaws in this football design that Aaron Rodgers covers but doesn't fix. It would not surprise me if Rodgers doesn't re-up with the Packers but instead looks for a chance to win a Super Bowl before his window is closed. From the GM to the coaches down to the talent on this team, the likelihood of making it to the top without a rebuild are slim. Why would you finish out your career on a project when the builders don't appear to recognize that a change of approach is required.
badaxed
November 08, 2017 at 04:56 pm
good one! Like
Fire_Gute
November 08, 2017 at 06:35 am
This whole article is crap. It's terribly written, and aside from the factual errors the opinions are stupid.
The defense has has every top draft pick for YEARS. And although Ted's definitely had plenty of whiffs, Dom is the number one reason it's terrible. TTs square peg /round hole philosophy doesn't help.
The offense does not have plenty of talent. It has plenty of names you are familiar with and your family members own jerseys of. Big difference.
This whole roster is a disaster because of the way its been built. The skill positions on offense have been ignored. In the last 5 years, only 5 offensive players have been taken in the first 3 rounds(plenty of offensive players if you use the other pronunciation). Lacy, Adams, Richard Rogers, Montgomery and Spriggs. Gone, good, forgotten, overhyped and terrible. One offensive starter in 5 years and a gadget player who as a 5th round pick would be a cool story, as a 3rd rounder is kind of a waste.
Mcmuffin isn't helping any. When things aren't working, and you don't have the best ever to fix them, you need to make changes. He just can't. He needs to go. Enough with the QB school, Qb guru crap. Flynn played good. That's it. Hundley, Brohm, Tolzien, Harrell, Coleman, ect haven't.
stockholder
November 08, 2017 at 07:12 am
You had a great comment right up to Mcmuffin. I have NO problem with MM and the offense. He didn't draft or sign the Qbs. TT did. But he is to blame for Capers. They knew what the problem was! (With so many picks being on the defensive side.) Whose Idea was it to make Datone Jones a LB and Raji a D-end. Capers! Collins and woodson were generals. Capers had nothing to do with them, and gave them free reign. Why are not Collins and Woodson coaches on this team? Capers is the problem. And MM should have taken care of it. MM does not like to fire coaches. Either he fires Capers or must be shown the door too.
SpudRapids
November 08, 2017 at 10:51 am
McCarthy is loyal to a fault but he did fire Slocum and besides long snapper special teams has improved under Zook.
mnbruton
November 08, 2017 at 08:13 am
Would you care to elaborate on the "factual errors" you seemed to find throughout the article? If you're alluding to my mistakenly using the word "defense" instead of "offense," which has been fixed, mea culpa. I'm sure absolutely no one was able to glean what I meant from a simple typo.
Otherwise, your unnecessarily vitriolic comment is filled with YOUR opinions - and you are welcome to them. But just because you disagree with mine a. doesn't make me objectively wrong, and b. doesn't give you the right to act like an ass in the comments section.
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 08:32 am
Michelle, I thought your article was really good.
I'm getting really sick of these commenters taking digs at writers in the comment section.
If people have problems with an article, fine, but can people stop being an ass about it?
mnbruton
November 08, 2017 at 09:18 am
Thanks, RC. I definitely don't expect everyone to agree with me, and I welcome (respectful) disagreement, because our community usually has the most thoughtful and interesting Packers discussions on the Internet.
Usually. :)
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 10:00 am
I am all for respectful disagreements. But when someone's first paragraph is what it was, I honestly didn't read the rest of it.
Disagreements and discussions are great as long as they are respectful. Once they cross the line, that person loses my respect.
I appreciate the work you do, and I do look forward to your articles.
Keep up the good work.
Bearmeat
November 08, 2017 at 11:53 am
Agreed. I enjoyed the article too, Michelle. Thanks for your work here!
Fire_Gute
November 08, 2017 at 10:22 am
Jayrone Elliott no longer plays here for starters. Kinda seems like a factual error.
As far as acting like an ass, pretty sure one person decided to use what would be considered unprofessional language and one didn't.
mnbruton
November 08, 2017 at 11:12 am
So - I'm genuinely curious - why couldn't you have simply written in and said, "Michelle, you made a mistake when you mentioned Jayrone Elliott in X paragraph?"
Believe it or not, it does not feel great to log into Cheesehead TV first thing in the morning and read that the article I worked on is "crap" and "terribly written." Because objectively, it's not. I'm a professional editor, and I know terrible writing when I see it. I take pride in my work. If you don't agree with what I have to say, great! You don't have to. But when you start your comment by attacking me, what makes you think I'm going to stick around to consider (and possibly even agree with) your counterpoints?
Also, words have more than one meaning.
Ass: n. Behave in a way that makes one look foolish.
SpudRapids
November 08, 2017 at 10:50 am
The only thing I noticed is Jaryone Elliot isn't on the team anymore
mnbruton
November 08, 2017 at 10:58 am
That is a good find! Thank you. Fixed; of course it should have been Chris Odom.
I just don't understand the culture of taking delight in tearing apart an entire article (or writer) for a simple error. When you write about a team for years and years, certain things become engrained in your mind and can slip out in a brain fart moment. Sometimes people will say "In paragraph X, did you mean to say Y?" And I love them for that - I am a professional editor, but we all need help editing our own work, even professionals.
Finwiz
November 08, 2017 at 11:08 am
Don't take it personally, people are just keyed up about this season, particularly after Monday night, and are looking for anything to vent frustration on, including sportswriters. Most posters around here have a lot of tough love for each other, including writers, but we appreciate the forum to be able to express what we feel. You need thick skin to be a sportswriter with the public as your critic. Work on letting criticism roll right off you, like water off a ducks back. It's just words.
mnbruton
November 08, 2017 at 11:15 am
I've been doing this awhile, Finwiz, and at the beginning, I told myself to develop a thick skin. And for awhile, I did.
But you know what? It's unfair that the onus should be on sportswriters to have a thick skin and not on readers to exercise respect and pleasantness when interacting with them.
You're absolutely right that people are entirely frustrated and angry about the state of the team right now, and they're looking for anything they can to take that out on. I've noticed a HUGE difference in how the online community responds to my tweets and articles in the last three weeks.
It is how it is; I'm not naive about that. I'm just really sick of being a punching bag, and I'm going to politely but firmly stand up for myself.
Honestly, at the end of the day, it's just a game. Life is too short.
Bearmeat
November 08, 2017 at 02:27 pm
You Go.
He was out of line.
PETER MAIZ
November 08, 2017 at 11:40 am
It's my sincere opinion that the article is very precise and to the point. Hundley has got to improve otherwise our consolation prize will be beating the Browns and perhaps only beating the Browns. And if MM were wise, he'd have gotten rid of Dom, which he can't as he appears to fear getting rid of chums more so than improving the team. Let's face it, a restructure towards improvement will start at the top of the coaching staff. Yes. and Hundley may not be able to hit the side of a barn at 50 yards away.
splitpea1
November 08, 2017 at 12:35 pm
The article looked pretty fair to me.
billybobton
November 08, 2017 at 01:45 pm
maybe he was over the top but that does not excuse poor writing, lack of research and not preparing.
Posted on this site were comments from pre season made by Denver TV that actually laughed out loud at BH...on air with one guy asking for permission to repeat the comments about BH because the idea of trading him was mentioned. It is impossible to ignore comments like that on air because it almost never happens.
Nobody is ever trading for BH and nobody ever would. Like it or not you are now representing your self as part of the media and in green bay integrity and accurate reporting is not to be found until it arrives like a avalanche. Instead of looking at tape or even bothering to read you repeat the drivel served up.
Go back and watch the denver game listening to the denver feed, then come back and excuse your 'happy talk' review of BH.
You (should have) watched the first 5 packer games. what was the impact from injured OL? Would the packers have been 9-0 during those 5 games with healthy OL? Would they have beaten ATL? Would they have lost to SEA with the starting OL? Your analysis is jv level.
Did the one week prep time and personal game plan help?
Did the two weeks help?
Maybe the non packer suck ups might actually know something or be able to process information not from the teddie hot line.
sheppercheeser
November 08, 2017 at 06:43 am
I feel Hundley has shown all we need to know. Now, how about giving Callahan a shot?
Slim11
November 08, 2017 at 07:03 am
If things don't change soon, I hope it's against Cleveland. I'll be there to see the game with some friends.
Handsback
November 08, 2017 at 07:22 am
I agree, you can have a very talented QB, but if he can't see or read the defense....he'll never make it. I don't know how many games it would take for the Packers to say let's try Callahan, but they should know if Hundley can't improve with another two games, they should make the switch.
jyros
November 08, 2017 at 09:50 am
Gil Brandt’s evaluation (on NFL radio) of Brett Hundley,prior to his draft day, is ringing true.
Free agent
November 08, 2017 at 12:47 pm
In retrospect, to bad TT didn’t pull the trigger on trading Huntley before the draft. Nobody will want him after watching him play regular season games
Free agent
November 08, 2017 at 12:50 pm
Correction: Hundley
Free agent
November 08, 2017 at 02:39 pm
Hundley has proven one thing; he can’t chew gum and play good football at the same time
Christopher Gennaro
November 08, 2017 at 04:44 pm
I thought I was the only one who couldn't do my job and chew gum at the same time. Love the comment I'm still laughing
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 06:50 am
Something i would like to know is in those 23 passes that were thrown within 5 yards of the LOS how many of those were designed to go there and how many were basically Hundley checking down?
Basically I'm asking was the play designed to have him throw it short or is that Hundley taking the check down pass vs reading through his progressions?
TGR showed us a link yesterday that showed Adams routes he ran on balls he caught. Virtually every route he ran was a 5 yard round. So is that Hundley or the coaches and play calling?
I know that people are going to knit pick every move and decision that Hundley makes. Like the play shown above. The picture shows a wide open Nelson. My only guess why Hundley didn't throw it was because he couldn't see where the Safety was set up, and by the time he had a chance to see him the pass protection was breaking down around him. If he doesn't see the safety and makes that throw people would be on him for throwing an interception.
Lets remember one thing too. The play on the field is happening lightning fast. We get the benefit to still frame pictures later on and criticize players over it. To be fair to the players we need to see that live time video of the play so we can see what they see.
I thought Hundley looked better as the game wore on especially in the 4th Quarter. He led 2 4th Quarter TD drives. Yeah, some may say it was the Lions playing a prevent style defense. Regardless the Packers offense went into a hurry up mode with Shotgun and no huddle. Hundley looked the best he has as a QB. That gives me at least some hope. Also during those 2 drives he was making downfield throws.
I think that is something that he can build on for the Chicago game. Also it may give the coaches some confidence in knowing he can run the no huddle offense.
Our season maybe over already, but I'm still going to try and enjoy watching each game.
dobber
November 08, 2017 at 07:37 am
" Regardless the Packers offense went into a hurry up mode with Shotgun and no huddle. Hundley looked the best he has as a QB."
This, over recent years, has always been the elixir to jump-start the offense when it's been dragging, even when #12 was playing. But if Hundley takes another snap from under center (except when killing the clock), MM is just dumb.
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 07:47 am
I really think McCarthy needs to switch to the pistol look more often. I do think Hundley is better out of the shotgun. And the pistol is a look that can still have an effective run game.
Perhaps the hurry up offense or no huddle will be something that can be effective with Hundley.
Christopher Gennaro
November 08, 2017 at 04:47 pm
I can totally get behind this, I just notice he sees the field better, and it better suited to his abilities. I get AR is #1 qb, but he didn't draft BH to be AR. More spread may actually help the wrs too. I don't know anymore just try to play to why you drafted him, as opposed to what you want him to become.
HankScorpio
November 08, 2017 at 08:08 am
The problem with playing no-huddle, hurry-up is that it tends to make the ToP disparity that has been killing the Packers in the 4th Q even worse. Unless you have someone playing QB that can move the chains very consistently, it is not an answer to any problem. It's just a way to make things worse.
dobber
November 08, 2017 at 08:19 am
You're right, but just because you're running everything out of the gun doesn't mean you have to always no-huddle, it doesn't mean you can't take your time setting up and milk the play clock, and part of what kills TOP is incompletions. Playing out of the gun doesn't dismiss the run-game, especially with a mobile QB. If anything, spreading the field might make #33 and #88 even more effective.
I feel that if they're going to extract any consistent productivity out of #7, this is their best bet.
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 08:39 am
I completely agree. I said something similar below.
I think spreading the teams out might help Hundley as well. He played mostly in a spread style offense in college. Also like you said it will help the Running game out.
HankScorpio
November 08, 2017 at 06:42 pm
I agree with all that, Dobber. I just haven't seen anything from Hundley that makes me believe he can execute it.
OTOH, given what he's done so far, there isn't much to lose.
Whatever they do, it should not be trying the same thing we've seen in the 2 previous games. We know that isn't working.
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 08:24 am
To be fair, the Packers under Rodgers ran a lot of no huddle and hurry up, but it didn't impact the play clock. They actually almost always snapped the ball with 5 seconds or less on the play clock.
Having Hundley run no huddle and hurry up doesn't necessarily mean they have to sacrifice the play clock. But what it does do is doesn't allow the defense to change personnel.
Tundraboy
November 08, 2017 at 11:50 am
True but with this Defense TOP is never going to be in our favor. Need to score whatever way possible. Maybe that would spark the defense. Desperate times call for desperate measures. Let it fly, better than this slop. Just please no more 5 yard passes, unless it's to Montgomery, or Kendrick, and occasionally Cobb. And then sparingly.
NickPerry
November 08, 2017 at 07:07 am
Even though they've shown nothing for the most part for the last few years, I HAVE TO believe the Packers have some talent on every level of the Defense. I think they could switch to a 4-3 defense without much problem and Perry might be even better as a 4-3 DE. I keep thinking what Perry would look like on a team like Philly for example who lineup their DE's out wide. I think he'd be a TERROR. Get another DE in the draft and add Daniels and Clark and you have the makings of a damn nice defensive front.
I think King can be a pretty good CB, maybe by next season. He's playing in a scheme it takes years to learn and even then it still doesn't work. I hate to say it but they still probably need another CB and maybe a safety. I like Josh Jones but Burnett might be gone and who knows what the hell happened to HHCD. They have some serviceable LB'ers in Martinez, Ryan and hopefully Biegel.
On offense they need LOTS of work. Even with Rodgers the the OL was giving up a ton of sacks. Yes I know they were playing with a bunch of back-up to the back-ups, but when we look at that group of O-Linemen it's a pretty thin group. They'll need a RT and RG for sure. They need spend at least one high draft choice at WR and for the love of God draft a TE!!!!!!! This team doesn't have a WR or skill position player who scares anyone other than AR. I love me some Jordy and think he should come back next season but then what and how much more will he lose? They NEED SPEED and some size at WR. Cobb should be released and Adams retained but ONLY at the right price. I keep asking myself how in the hell do you have the greatest QB in the game and one of the greatest of all time and give him THAT WR group. Common guys without Rodgers the Packers WR's are VERY average.
I say all this to say Hundley IS just another Cog on a VERY BROKEN team. Rodgers covers up the blown draft picks and lack of any REAL activity in FA from the GM. At a time when the team is sinking faster than the Titanic, you'd think the GM might have something to say. But that F'ing weirdo won't be heard from until after the season is over. I don't know about you but I think a GM who won't talk until AFTER the season is over is strange. AR covers up the flaws of Mike McCarthy's lack of imagination, decision making, and game time management. Mike McCarthy SHOULD have said I'm a highly successful HC in the League BECAUSE of Aaron Rodgers. Those are REALLY the facts Mike. AR can normally get you 28 points or more so as long as Capers holds them to 27 or at the very least Rodgers has the ball last, the Packers will win the game.
I know I've been/am being a pretty negative guy these last few weeks but I just can't believe how BAD this team really is. How poorly their coached, and what little talent they really have out of 53 players. We need a hell of a lot more "Cogs".
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 07:19 am
After seeing Peppers, Hyde leave GB and have more success with their new teams and also playing different positions then they played in GB has made me believe that Capers simply has guys playing out of position or not in roles that best suite them.
Which has me questioning if he has the players now playing the positions they should be, or having the players doing things they shouldn't be doing? An example is on many pass rush downs, it almost looks like the DT's are standing straight up like they are trying to eat up blocks to allow others to get to the QB. Well if 2 of the 4 rushers are not attempting to shoot gaps or get penetration how are we supposed to have a good pass rush with 2 guys?
I do believe we have enough talent to be better then we are on defense. But when you hear the opposing QB say they know exactly what the defense is going to do, its pretty easy to go against.
dobber
November 08, 2017 at 07:39 am
It used to be that we took pride in players leaving GB and not being much in their new digs. Very few ever left and improved themselves. That's not so much the case these last two years.
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 07:49 am
Exactly. Hayward, Hyde and Peppers all have left and had better seasons away from GB.
Which to me says a lot more about Capers then anything.
mnbruton
November 08, 2017 at 11:18 am
This is a fantastic point.
There is talent on this squad. I think we've reached the tipping point in terms of it not being used or schemed to its potential.
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 12:35 pm
I honestly didn't really questioned Capers and assumed it was more of a lack of talent in previous years. Though there have been things in the past that I wish he would have done differently, like using Mathews in the hybrid ILB role more. I still think there is a lack of talent, but I do feel we have enough talent to be better then what we are. Also seeing that Peppers, Hyde and Hayward all leave and actually got better, I really question how they were used in GB.
Looking at it, it appears that Hyde was played out of position in Green Bay. He plays safety with Buffalo, whereas he was more of a CB in GB. Peppers played a lot of DT on pass rushing downs for GB, whereas he is back at his DE role.
So that leaves me asking, are our current players now playing the roles that they should be? As I mentioned above with Mathews should he be used differently? I still think the hybrid ILB role he played in 2014 was perfect for him. Well he hasn't been used that way in a long time. Perhaps if Brooks and Biegel get playing more we will see Mathews playing that role more.
I think its time to get a new voice for the defense. If it were me, I would have made the change during the Bye week. It would have given the new DC 2 weeks to get the defense ready.
Christopher Gennaro
November 08, 2017 at 04:54 pm
Agreed there is talent even with TT misses, lets make it simple and see what happens. No exotic blitz or the jailhouse crap we saw on MOnday. Tell them line up with the man opposite and beat them, that's it. Or as Nick Perry said we can go to 4-3, but as off now no more nitro, if anything 4 d-linemen 2 lbs and five dbs. We're losing maybe just maybe allowing the defense to just play and not worry about scheme, will get players reengaged. I know their pros, but it looks like a lot of the defense was mailing it in.
dobber
November 08, 2017 at 07:31 am
"But that F'ing weirdo won't be heard from until after the season is over. I don't know about you but I think a GM who won't talk until AFTER the season is over is strange. "
I'd rather have this than JJ mugging for the camera (and frankly emasculating Jason Garrett) every chance he gets.
Frankly, I think anyone who has buried their entire life in a sport and spends all their time doing nothing but watching film, etc., has to have a couple cogs loose himself. It might almost be as bad as someone who gets a Ph.D. in chemistry...
Razer
November 08, 2017 at 08:17 am
I agree. A team doesn't need a GM chirping to add to the distractions. The bottom line for Ted is to do his job better.
stockholder
November 08, 2017 at 07:31 am
If MM doesn't Fire Capers, he should go. And I would make the switch to the 4-3-4 now. Just to get rid of Capers and Moss. I understand people don't like Cobb's salary. But I'd keep him. I don't pay it. Nelson, Cobb ,and Adams are to over valued by A-Rod ,and the Packer Fans. TT gambled on the TES AND LOST. But I believe their stuck with all three. Even what they can get out of the TE position. We need LBs. Frackwell is a bust, as were so many that left. Management must face the fact that Perry and Mathews are one dimensional. That more speed and toughness is needed.
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 08:47 am
I don't get why switching to a 4-3 would really change anything. Unless our personnel best fits the 4-3. Which to be honest, i have no idea if it does or doesn't. I don't think Capers knows.
7 of the top 10 defenses run a 3-4 defense. The 3-4 isn't the problem. I do think its the old man running it that is.
stockholder
November 08, 2017 at 10:49 am
Easy, It gets Capers out of town, and their personal fits it now. Perry and Mathews are to slow now. You need faster Lbs for the 3-4, not to mention safeties that know what is coming. TT had a chance to get ATL. Deion Jones and took Spriggs. He later took Frackwell and Martinez. Even selected Davis WR over a faster LB thats in SD. I want Moss gone to. But your right to a point. But compare the Lbs today, to 2010. Not to mention the best secondary in the NFL. You'll see Younger and faster. And Greene had control of Mathews. Are DC has kept his job only because he was tied to 2010.
dobber
November 08, 2017 at 12:18 pm
I don't know who you're watching, but CMIII still runs very well.
stockholder
November 08, 2017 at 03:14 pm
Yes he still runs well. But he was faster in 2010. Just unstoppable. 4-3-4 Would he fit?. My feeling is if he was in Seatle, He would be on the line.
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 01:32 pm
lol true.
Well from sources close to me, I think Capers will be out no matter what after the season.
I personally hated drafting Spriggs last year. Now had Spriggs turned into a Bakhtiari type of player it would have been a good move. But he isn't, so its not.
Martinez has been a very good pick. I agree though I would have loved to have had Jatavis Brown. He was one of my draft crushes that has absolutely been a steal.
I thought 2014 was Capers last great coaching year. Though last year year with the injuries to the CB's really hampered him, so we have no idea how good last year could have been, Sam Shields would have made a big difference on last years team.
fthisJack
November 09, 2017 at 07:34 am
are you kidding me? Martinez has played very well at ILB....better than anyone we've had there for 10 years.
fthisJack
November 09, 2017 at 07:34 am
are you kidding me? Martinez has played very well at ILB....better than anyone we've had there for 10 years.
Tundraboy
November 08, 2017 at 06:04 pm
NP. You are, as all of us are, rightly negative. ARod makes it work, but he deserves a dynamic game changing WR as nearly every other team, and a dynamic TE. He deserves it. Get rid of Capers and implement the changes you mention, and we are left to find OL help and some true pass rushers via the draft. I just don't want TT doing it or MM to lead it. That would be just postponing what must be done now, And we all know the reasons why.
Christopher Gennaro
November 08, 2017 at 05:02 pm
To add to that just look at the bills with McDermott, that defense is top 10 and have they have so much more talent than the Packers. Easy answer is yes, but man for man I don't think they are light years ahead in talent. What they have is both a head coach and McDermott and yes that's right Leslie Frazier on the field demanding accountability. Looking at the talent they need a leader and they don't have one, find one and we can start to give AR a draft that helps him for once.
4thand1
November 08, 2017 at 07:05 am
Win and lose as a team. There is no I in team. TT, MM, and the rest of the Packer brass ignored this. They have one game changer, Aaron Rodgers, now they don't. All the posts in here see it, the sports shows see it, Chucky saw it live Monday night. They have failed all of us and appear to be staying the course. We can all scream for Capers head, but this stubborn organization will turn a deaf ear. It may change when we lose to the lowly Browns.
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 07:30 am
To be fair the Packers One game changer is the biggest game changer in the league.
He affects the whole team.
These are the Packers Averages with Rodgers and without.
The Packers offense with Rodgers averaged 27.4 points per game and the defense averaged 22.4 ppg. Since Hundley came in the offense has averaged 14.6 points per game and the defense has given up 26.3 points per game.
The defense is worse and the offense is worse. Rodgers is so good he puts fear in opposing defense and offenses.
dobber
November 08, 2017 at 07:38 am
Is the defense really worse or is it that much more tired and exposed? What's the TOP difference? The Packers were a ball-control passing offense behind #12. Not so much behind #7.
In edit: I definitely agree with your statement on ARod putting fear in the opposition and changing how they game plan and the number of chances they take.
RCPackerFan
November 08, 2017 at 08:06 am
After looking at the TOP in each game there really isn't that big of a difference. Only 2 games the Packers actually lead in TOP. The last 2 games though the Packers had the ball the least amount of the year.
Another interesting stat is 4th Quarter scoring.
With Rodgers the Packers averaged 10.6 points in the 4th quarter. The opponents averaged 4.6 points.
With Hundley the Packers averaged 5.6 points in the 4th quarter whereas the opponents are averaging 9.6 points.
Dzehren
November 08, 2017 at 06:37 pm
AROD keeps our defense off the field by extending drives and snapping the ball with the play clock at 1 second for a reason.
Slim11
November 08, 2017 at 07:05 am
I only got to see the last quarter Monday night. TOP 23:05? That's horrible!
dobber
November 08, 2017 at 07:28 am
"Brett Hundley is just a cog in a broken wheel"
Mongo just pawn in game of life...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKRma7PDW10
Dr.Rodgers
November 08, 2017 at 07:47 am
This team has no identity without Aaron Rodgers. Each game for the rest of the season will be a test of fan patience. If there isn’t a drastic change soon, people will be giving their tickets away rather than freezing their asses off at Lambeau. The grieving process will run its course for the rest of the season and hopefully there will be some positive changes in team staffing and philosophy. Most of us are hoping for a competitive team with at least a chance of winning each game. It’s not entertaining watching this team fall apart each time they play.
dobber
November 08, 2017 at 07:56 am
We used to rely on fan apathy when the weather turned cold to get tickets at Lambeau in the late 80s and early 90s. We saw a lot of meaningless December football. You're right: people will start giving those tickets away rather than being cold.
rdent
November 08, 2017 at 09:01 am
I could have gone to the game, glad I didn't waste the money.
badaxed
November 08, 2017 at 05:26 pm
Did you notice the empty seats with 5 minutes left in the game. I do not recall ever seeing this with Farve or Rogers at the helm.
HankScorpio
November 08, 2017 at 08:19 am
They still have not faced the reality that Rodgers is out but the season moves on. They are playing like a team that had their SB aspirations dashed on one play and they're feeling sorry for themselves that they are playing for something other than a shot at the Lombardi. It's happening on both sides of the ball. They were not a great defense but they would at least force the occasional punt and come up with a turnover or two.
It's on the coaching staff to shake them out of that funk. Showing no faith in the replacement QB with the game plans they have used is just making the problem worse. The players are not stupid. They can recognize the staff has no faith in Hundley so why would they trust him? It's chicken stuff football. The players knows it and play accordingly.
Free agent
November 08, 2017 at 09:00 am
It sucked losing Rodgers for the remainder of the season. Might be worth it if there is a total revamping of the current regime. Time for a new GM, Head coach and coaching staff. Everything is so predictable, stale and boring. The most exciting thing to look forward to is the Geico triangle solo commercial.
Razer
November 08, 2017 at 09:53 am
...The most exciting thing to look forward to is the Geico triangle solo commercial...
Too funny!
Tundraboy
November 08, 2017 at 11:44 am
Hysterically funny. Like more cow bell.
stockholder
November 08, 2017 at 10:30 am
I still disagree on New Coach. Capers and the defense is the problem. We saw how bad the offense got with someone else calling the Plays. Keep that in mind when you want MM gone. A-Rod and MM make a great team. We knew what the Packers were going to be without A-Rod. But we also saw why MM took back the play Calling. MMs mistake is not Firing Capers. And TT keeps trying to get him players that bust out. I see TT interfering. We see this with playing draft picks that are not developed yet. Playing them over veterans. I believe MMs hands are tied. In one form or another. The actions to back Capers has gone on long enough.
fthisJack
November 09, 2017 at 07:52 am
MM's play calling is not his only job. he is in charge of scheming, game planning, clock management, adjustments, control of his coaching staff. his whole coaching philosophy has gotten stale and predictable. no innovation on offense. no new wrinkles. no accountability from his coaching staff. they need a fresh start from top to bottom.
lou
November 08, 2017 at 10:23 am
The one issue everyone agrees on is that you have to have a top QB to win in the NFL and a competent backup QB if you want to win big in the NFL as well. That said it is apparent the Packers are lacking and have lacked a competent backup QB for some time and to date Hundley does not look like an exception to that finishing the season. It would make sense to me to bring in Ron Wolf on a temporary basis with the sole purpose to identify the best college QB talent in an effort to groom Rodgers replacement and in addition pick his brain on an experienced backup QB for next season as well. Wolf's success rate is off the charts, Favre/Brunnell/Hasselback/Brooks/Detmer and he even had Warner in camp one spring. The sooner they start this process the better, coaching and player personnel decisions can be made at year end evaluation time but the QB position is a make or break equation no matter who the coach is which is so evident now.
baldski
November 09, 2017 at 03:16 am
Yes, see if Ron Wolf can be lured out for a QB search! At least he understands his mistakes. He regretted not getting Brett Favre more #1 receivers. One thing though, he sure could recognize QB talent. I mean he told Holmgren his QB would be Favre a year before he got him.
I happened to catch a program last summer that had one of the SF 49er coaches on who was there during the draft of 2005 and said the reason the Niners passed on Rodgers was he was deemed to be too cocky! So, maybe this was passed around the league. Anyhow he fell to GB by a fluke.
Hundley, I believe, has the same problem as Kaepernick has. They cannot read defenses yet. I watched Kaepernick in college and he ran the pistol great because he could run and did not have to read defenses so much as in the pros. Hundley telegraphs throws with his eyes. Arod's eyes are like a pinball machine, all over the field looking at defenses.
dobber
November 09, 2017 at 08:30 am
" Hundley telegraphs throws with his eyes. Arod's eyes are like a pinball machine, all over the field looking at defenses."
Comparing most QBs to #12 is akin to comparing most organizations to the Patriots: of course they're going to look bad. You're picking the most extreme case for your standard.
Tundraboy
November 08, 2017 at 10:31 am
Agree with everything except the perhaps part.. Not sure exactly quite how top you mean, but TT on down is in order. A fresh vision is needed, not any more staffing or organizational adjustments. Why waste time. Staff is too disjointed IMO. I think a more simple approach, a field level DC and a HC focused on the D and O. And give the OC full responsibility instead of the current arrangement. Great to groom Edgar but.... Now a new GM to kick it off.
"The defense, however, is a far more nuanced problem, one that will require multiple draft selections and perhaps even a significant change at the top level to address."
Let it fly. See what we have now.
Denise Chanterelle
November 08, 2017 at 10:58 am
Michelle: I throughly enjoyed reading your insightful article. Well written. Thank you and keep em coming. Cheers.
mnbruton
November 08, 2017 at 11:20 am
Thank you for reading, Denise!
FAN24583
November 08, 2017 at 11:00 am
The train is about to leave the station TT,MM, DC.
Free agent
November 08, 2017 at 12:34 pm
Hopefully they will be boarding the bullet train in January
PETER MAIZ
November 08, 2017 at 12:04 pm
What if Brady retires this year? Rodgers to the Patriots?
billybobton
November 08, 2017 at 02:05 pm
Don't worry about Brady...worry about Elway
Razor
November 08, 2017 at 02:01 pm
Don't know how many skilled players are on the team - not my job to figure it out.
I don't care what statistics you point out, or players no longer with the team or anything else.
I do know that Ted, Mike and Dom have had many years to produce results.
Are we happy with the overall results since 2010? Think about it - seven years!
So, let's keep doing the same things and expect different results = insanity.
Free agent
November 08, 2017 at 07:11 pm
Yep. Time for an extreme makeover
This team has been regressing the past few years. To many young and inexperienced players lost and out on position the defense. 3rd down and whatever distance to go doesn’t matter, they can’t get a stop and get off the field.
HankScorpio
November 08, 2017 at 07:43 pm
"Are we happy with the overall results since 2010? Think about it - seven years!
So, let's keep doing the same things and expect different results = insanity."
Bill Belichick went 9 years between his 3rd and 4th SB wins. He's picked up a 5th SB win since. It's a good thing for NE that Robert Kraft was "insane" enough to stick with Belichick during that time.
Finwiz
November 08, 2017 at 08:49 pm
Perspective.
Good point Hank.
billybobton
November 08, 2017 at 02:04 pm
Just re-read it again, can not believe anyone who ever read anything on this site could say this...wow....wtf have you been?
"Only now are we realizing just how deep those cracks might run. "
jfajas
November 09, 2017 at 06:30 am
Deep, deep problems and they are getting worse.
Been saying that especially regarding our offense (slowest group of receivers in the nfl, outdated offensive concepts...) even with Rodgers at the helm.
As for the D (one of the worst in the nfl), they need a reboot with a new DC and personnel.
They (front office) also need to manage better our salary cap. Apart from rodgers, there is no elite player in this team. Clay Matthews (15m), Cobb (10m)....
I honnestly don't see us winning another game this year. Talentwise we have drafted poorly, and it shows!
MM and the front office are beeing exposed with 12 out for the season.
This roster is a terrible waste of the most outstanding and talented QB to ever play this game. It just makes me sad...