The Lass Word: The Time is Now for this Defense
Can they be good enough to be Super?
By KenLass
The Green Bay Packers finished the 2023 season as one of the most dynamic offensive teams in the NFL. The 9-8 record, and the playoff win over the Cowboys, in spite of being the youngest team in the league, has created Super Bowl expectations among many fans of the green and gold for 2024.
That offense should be stacked again this fall. The only significant loss was Aaron Jones at running back, but he has been replaced by Josh Jacobs, one of the top free agents at the position. The starting right guard, Jon Runyan, has also departed, but he figured to be in a fight to keep his job this year anyway. With a talented crew of young receivers and tight ends improving, and continued maturity from Jordan Love at quarterback, scoring points should not be an issue. The Packers are going to have one of the best offenses in the league.
But is the defense going to be good enough to help the team to a Super Bowl? Does it even need to be? We’ve heard forever that “defense wins championships”. But is that still true? Or have the modern day rules, most all of which favor the offense, made it possible to simply outscore opponents all the way to a championship game? Let’s take a look at recent Super Bowl history to find out.
For all the hype and acclaim given to Patrick Mahomes, the fact is the Kansas City Chiefs went all the way last season with a dominant defense. The Chiefs ranked no better than fifteenth in offensive points scored during the regular season last year. However, they did rank second in fewest points allowed. You could well point to that and exclaim “See? Defense does still win championships”.
However, it’s interesting to note that, prior to last year, from 2017 to 2022, the Super Bowl champion ranked higher on offense than they did on defense. In fact, six of the last eight champions had an offense that ranked in the top five in points scored, and of the two that did not, one ranked seventh.
Which is not necessarily to say those teams were bad on the defensive side of the ball. Nine of the last eleven title holders ranked in the top ten in defensive points allowed.
So what do these rankings suggest? Well, here’s a shock (not). Turns out the great majority of Super Bowl winners are at least top ten, if not top five, in BOTH offense and defense. This has been true in seven out of the last eleven years.
Green Bay’s offense is definitely on its way there. The question mark is on defense. Can Jeff Hafley do what Dom Capers, Mike Pettine and Joe Barry couldn’t? Can he get the defense to play consistently well? Can he break the chain of mediocrity that has become a troubling tradition on that side of the ball? Does he even have the players who are good enough to do it?
Hafley is certainly fighting history. In the thirteen seasons since Green Bay last won a Super Bowl the defense has finished in the top ten in points allowed only twice, and never higher than ninth. In 2010, when the Packers last hoisted the Lombardi Trophy, they finished second.
There is reason to be encouraged. The unit may be closer than you think. It may surprise you to learn that Green Bay’s defense actually ranked higher than its offense in terms of points in 2023. The defense was tenth in points allowed, while the offense stood twelfth in points scored. Hafley brings a change in philosophy, with a switch to a 4-3 base, which may suit the team’s personnel better. There is highly drafted talent across the board, at all three levels, including incoming rookies Javon Bullard at safety and Edgerrin Cooper at linebacker, both perhaps the top players in the draft at their positions.
And to a large degree, the defense has indeed shown it can play well. They just don’t seem to have what it takes to play their best at the end of a game, with the outcome on the line. In the playoffs against the 49ers they held that explosive offense to just fourteen points through three quarters. The previous week they held the even more explosive Cowboys to sixteen points through the middle of the fourth quarter, until Matt LaFleur prematurely sent in the reserves.
Green Bay’s offense will carry them a long way in 2024, just as it did in 2010. But to be Super? That’s going to be determined by the defense. It’s time to be better than good. It’s time to be great.
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__________________________
Ken Lass is a former Green Bay television sports anchor and 43 year media veteran, a lifelong Packers fan, and a shareholder.
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Comments (164)
TKWorldWide
May 06, 2024 at 06:18 am
How about needing the defense to get a key stop or turnover (which I guess is also a “stop”) late in the game when protecting a slim lead? The better the defense, the more likely the stop.
greengold
May 06, 2024 at 08:44 am
Yup. It's not... like... Rocket Science... ... ... or, ... Jazz Flute...!!!
(Tull flourish.)
DoubleJ
May 06, 2024 at 09:18 am
Under Barry I never felt as though they would get a stop if they needed one. Hopefully Hafley will change that feeling for us fans.
Duhawk_47
May 06, 2024 at 04:45 pm
I'd sign up for that!
HawkPacker
May 06, 2024 at 06:50 am
Nice article.
Now the question, which will rank higher by year end offense or defense? What say you?
Guam
May 06, 2024 at 07:36 am
Offense. The defense may take awhile to gel due to new scheme and players. The offense will be ready to go day one.
Cheezehead72
May 06, 2024 at 08:09 am
I will put my money on the offense
Leatherhead
May 06, 2024 at 07:16 pm
Offense. The Packers are going to be better on offense, one the best offenses in the NFC . This year, we're going to score more points, earlier in the game.,,This means opposing teams will feel pressure to throw more against us than they did last year.
Throwing the ball scores more TDs,more points. It produces more yards and more big plays than runs between the tackles. Therefore it follows that we'll
have more points scored on us this year.
Offense scoring: Probability of Top 6. This should be an elite offense.
Defense scoring: Average, to me, is between 12-20, and that's where I think we'll rank.
HawkPacker
May 06, 2024 at 06:53 am
I do like what Gute did in the off season with signing FA's and the draft. On offense, he shored up some particular weaknesses in the OL as well as upgraded(?) the rb position.
On defense, we look strong at all levels after what Gute has done for us. My concern is going to be how stout the DL will be and I still question the cb room. Gute is comfortable with each apparently and he knows so much more than me and actually all of us posters!
Also, how many games into the season with the new defense start working as we all hope?
dobber
May 06, 2024 at 09:21 am
https://www.jsonline.com/story/sports/nfl/packers/2024/05/06/dont-assume...
Since you mention OL...interesting take by Tom Silverstein on JSOnline this morning Re: the offensive line. Essentially, he says that unless there's an injury, we shouldn't be expecting significant changes in the OL very soon.
Might be behind a paywall, so for those who can't reach it--
About the C position: he says that the Packers' coaches really like Myers and seem happy with him and his progress at C. Myers would have to really regress to move Tom at this stage, and they'd have to be very confident they've got a plus player to replace Tom with at RT. That said, he hints that the Packers are unlikely to resign Myers and he asserts that Monk is a guy they drafted specifically to be the next C. If he fails, then they look at other options.
Morgan and Walker will battle for LT. They like Walker, but in his words--they wouldn't have chosen a LT high if they didn't think they could do better. He sees Dillard as an insurance policy and not much more.
The Packers like Sean Rhyan, but he could be displaced. His assessment is that if Tom is going to move, it's more likely to be to RG than C based on how the Walker/Morgan battle goes.
Coldworld
May 06, 2024 at 10:24 am
Where one starts out and where one ends up
is often a very different place.
As to Tom at RG, I’d certainly be very skeptical of the wisdom of that. Yes it’s possible that that is necessary to have the overall best 5, but extremely unlikely given Tom is our best T and RG is a position where we have a whole lot of candidates.
At this point I’d expect the initial position to be similar to last year, particularly away from RG where no one grabbed the position finally. If we are still there in September then we really have to start wondering why, if Morgan is so much better at LT than Walker, why Tom isn’t too?
Is it really credible that Morgan wouldn’t be a better upgrade at RG with Tom still at T? The other question would be what the heck did we draft?
I don’t have huge faith in our OL decision making over pkayer choices under Stenovich/Butkus. However, I still can’t give this piece much credit. If it proves prescient, I will be seriously questioning the coaching staff and the approach to the OL draft.
If Myers remains at C and is not drastically better, I think the doubt would become absolute and we’d need to start looking at why we drafted the way we did or whether our coaches are the obstacle to improvement.
Right now, I prefer to doubt Silverstein.
HawkPacker
May 06, 2024 at 11:34 am
One thing that we do know is that we don't really know what the coaches, etc. think about what is the weak spot on the OL. If they are happy with the current tackles, why draft one? You can say that our first pick is better and will start at left tackle but maybe not. We signed a free agent tackle and drafted one in the first round and we have 3 on the practice squad.
With all of that happening we all should admit to a bit of confusion to say the least.
NickPerry
May 06, 2024 at 07:04 am
For the first time in YEARS I have some confidence the Packers have resolved the issues they've had at safety and ILB. I loved the picks of Cooper and Bullard and the signing of McKinney. For the first time since Charles Woodson left I actually feel the Packers have a defense that can actually win the game, NOT lose it. They have a defense, at least on paper, who can both cover the middle of the field and get after the QB.
Now it's time for Hafley to get these guys playing like a Championship defense. I understand it takes time but wouldn't it be something for the Packers to come out week one in Brazil and shut down the Philly offense? Well maybe "Shut Down" is the wrong choice of words but I have a feeling it may not be as far off as some think.
Guam
May 06, 2024 at 07:33 am
I whole heartedly agree with your optimism NP, but I suspect it will take 4-8 games before we see the Packer defense come into its own. Between a new scheme and a bunch of new players (a veteran and several rookies) the defense may take awhile to learn to play together. By mid-season I expect the Packer defense to be much better.
T7Steve
May 06, 2024 at 08:07 am
I was thinking it would take a while to get the D going too. Then I thought "which is harder"? Getting a D going or an offense? Philly is starting out with a new offense. Are they going to be all dialed in at the start of the season? They also have changes on their O-line too.
The game may be decided by our 2nd year O against their experienced D. And, of course, special teams.
greengold
May 06, 2024 at 09:01 am
Years. An understatement at that, and I'm right with you on this, Nick.
The Packers D has been GASHED endlessly since Ted Thompson let Cullen Jenkins leave for Philly. Then he lost his budding star NT BJ Raji, and along with him, Charles Woodson, the legend.
Our weaknesses in middle D, scoring D, explosive plays allowed, TDs allowed, and TOs has remained quite poor since overall.
I do think Gutekunst may have just put together 3 exceptional drafts in a row. That will do much to change things for the better. Add to that his sloughing off of dead weight upon the team & cap over that same span, along with his first foray into real Top FA acquisitions in years... I like what he's done. Immensely.
Looking forward to seeing the positive results.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 01:19 pm
You forgot to add Daniels.
And why overpay Lowrey.
Still you were right on track -
Until you put together 3 straight draft.
But you are entitled to your opinion.
So No down vote here
jannesbjornson
May 06, 2024 at 03:47 pm
They carried EIGHT number one selections on the defensive side of the ball the past couple of years and could not get the job done. Not convinced this guy knows how to pick'em. I have optimism Wyatt can be turned loose inside, but the LBs will take some convincing. They have one shut-down CB. To win the Big Game, you need two.
McKinney gives them a guy to roam the middle, but he was protected by some bigs up front in Gotham City from free runners.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 07:05 am
Did you see the Los Vegas odds.?
Great write up- I'm pumped.
But the reality is: The Trench .
Champions have players that block.
Champions have players that
are very good in the trench
The Packers DL; has been rated near the
bottom of the NFL, since 2010.
Games will always be won in the Trench.
And thats just what the GMs of the Packers
Don't get. Don't understand, and Didn't Fix.
Now I can go on about Gute.
And you can praise all his picks you want.
But until we get some game changers up front.
Players that stand out.
You aren't going to the super-Bowl.
Every Lombardi trophy in GB had a DL.
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 07:19 am
It's trenches. They don't just line up on the 50 yard line and beat the hell out of each other. Some long dead sportswriter stupidly used a WW 1 comparison and it stuck. Apparently you think there was on giant trench between France and Germany and it never MOVED.
Name 5 teams that have a better DL than the Packers. There's no substance to your schtick, no savant to your idiocy. If Trench Mouth was a thing you'd have it.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 10:31 am
Are you president of this Boys club?
Because you're No history Buff.
KC-
SF-
Balt
Miami
Phil
Coldworld
May 06, 2024 at 11:03 am
It’s a little early for the release of rational position group assessments for last year, which usually pop up prior to camp, however, here’s one from mid season.
https://www.the33rdteam.com/2023-nfl-midseason-defensive-line-rankings/
Green Bay comes in 12th, despite a poor start to the season. The message? It’s perhaps not our DL that’s the problem primarily, but what was going on behind it. Which of our DL were bad? Maybe that’s a good question to ponder.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 11:09 am
Wyatt can't play DE.
And neither could RAji.
Coldworld
May 06, 2024 at 11:32 am
Raji played under Capers in a 3:4. He never played a 4:3 DE with us. A 4:3 DE is a very different tole to one in 3:4. It’s usually filled by a lighter guy and more concerned with penetration. I’m not sure how prototypical the Hafley version is, but Wyatt seems one of the more obvious candidates to benefit from the switch.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 01:29 pm
Raji was a NT. He should have stayed there.
Clark is too.
Clark sure did out play Wyatt at DE. Even Raji.
Then they kept switching him.
Because if they didn't.
Wyatt would be a Bust.
This way he can give Clark away.
And over-pay Wyatt like Lowrey.
jannesbjornson
May 06, 2024 at 03:57 pm
Say what? Wyatt was under-utilized and he still came home with 5.5 sacks. He should be used like Sapp was employed for Tampa. The guys to put on the bust list are in full view with Stokes, Walker and Savage has been punted. We will see how Hafley will square away this unit.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 04:46 pm
If he was that good JB.
He would have played.
And you would have seen it.
Don't turn him into something he'll never be.
Walker is an OLb who is learning how to play inside.
Don't hold his bonehead plays against him.
If you think he's a slacker and Regressed.
You could have a point when they total up
the missed tackles.
jannesbjornson
May 06, 2024 at 05:44 pm
Not. Montgomery has been sent down the road and out the door. One picks should not sit collecting dust. Wyatt is a DT, as is Clark. DE , or six tech for your 3-4. Clark was being abused with dbl. teams and his only relief was Slaton which isn't saying much. If they preach a seek and destroy gap shooting D line, they should have grabbed T Sweat to create the logjam inside.
jannesbjornson
May 06, 2024 at 03:53 pm
Wyatt is the three-tech in a 4-3/4-2 front. He and Clark should be inside with Brooks, Gary and Van Ness as hands-down DEs. Another heavy to pressure Slaton's reps would have come in handy. If he thinks they can play run on the way to the QB, the OCs will send pulling guards and a lead dog to test the middle. I still push for T. Sweat.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 04:59 pm
See -if I was running the DL.
Brooks would be rotated at DE when
Slaton and Clark are in there.
And then Van Ess stays at De.
But Lets see how Wyatt plays.
Because I thought Brooks outplayed Wyatt.
Regardless they must find the right rotation
for P.Smith and Gary.
And Wyatt should replace Slayton if he can.
jannesbjornson
May 06, 2024 at 05:47 pm
Brooks is a prototypical 4-3 DE.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 05:53 pm
Ourlads depth chart
LDE 52 Gary, Rashan 19/1 90 Van Ness, Lukas 23/1
NT 97 Clark, Kenny 16/1 93 Slaton, T.J. 21/5
DT 95 Wyatt, Devonte 22/1 94 Brooks, Karl 23/6
RDE 91 SMITH, PRESTON U/Was 55 Enagbare, Kingsley 22/5
WLB 7 Walker, Quay 22/1 59 Hopper, Ty'Ron 24/3
MLB 56 Cooper, Edgerrin 24/2 58 McDuffie, Isaiah 21/6
LCB 21 Stokes, Eric 21/1 37 Valentine, Carrington 23/7
SS 29 McKinney, Xavier U/NYG 27 Oladapo, Kitan 24/5
FS 20 Bullard, Javon 24/2 33 Williams, Evan 24/4
RCB 23 Alexander, Jaire 18/1 26 Ballentine, Corey SF22
NB 25 Nixon, Keisean U/LV 30 Gilbert, Zyon SF23
jannesbjornson
May 06, 2024 at 06:27 pm
See if Hafley is a clear thinker, creative with looks, or just another replicator with a bad haircut? The CBs are the weak spot if Jaire goes down. The LBs?
TKWorldWide
May 06, 2024 at 07:06 pm
Hey, ease up on that haircut talk. 😉
Leatherhead
May 06, 2024 at 12:38 pm
So the defensive line ranked 12th, but it was the problem behind the Dline that led to us being 10th in scoring.??
I'm not quite getting the poor start to the season thing. 5 of our first 8 opponents couldn't get to 20 on us . The only bad showing was against the Lions.
For this year, I think that the Packers Dline is going to be the dominant unit in the division. We have enough good players that we can withstand injuries and keep people fresh all year. No matter what the configuration, every guy we have on that line can win one-on-one matchups. We don't need to be tricky, Just cover the receivers and the pass rush will take care of the rest.
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 12:14 pm
Naming the 49ers shows how little you know. They traded Armstead and let Kinlaw and Young go in FA. They did sign Floyd but one of their starting DTs now is Malik Collins. Advantage Packers.
Miami?🤣🤣🤣Try harder. Their best DL player is a Raider now.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 01:13 pm
look it up.
My comment was since 2010
As per Miami- Yes they were only a star short.
Now two.
Still their DL was rated ahead of the packers.
Tundraboy
May 07, 2024 at 01:37 am
Trench mouth, at least as an expression was a real thing. I ate something off the floor as a kid, got something bad and that's what my mother said I had. Wasn't good!
LLCHESTY
May 07, 2024 at 07:47 pm
Now there's the kind of down votes I'm looking for! It's a good day Hoss.
LeotisHarris
May 06, 2024 at 08:21 am
They say Time is a flat circle in The Trench.
Johnblood27
May 06, 2024 at 08:40 am
Go ahead and beat on Stocky all you want.
He has a point... and this time not just on his head.
The GBP DL has underperformed for years.
Kenny is a talented player, no doubt. But... hasn't the rallying cry been "Get Kenny Some Help!" for quite some time now?
The Dean Lowreys of the world just do not get it done.
Even the guys now alongside Kenny are questionable in a size/power way whether or not they will translate to DL adequacy in todays NFL or not.
Brooks and Wooden as well as Wyatt have shown some flashes of competency and even at time look to be good DL, but they are of a new mold and are lighter than DL of the past, and I dont mean nose tackle sized guys who go above 330. I mean 310 lb masses of muscle. GB just hasn't had any in quite a while. Hence the lack of run stopping, especially in the meatgrinder times of games like late in the 4th quarter when the GB defense just cannot get off the field. Slaton is a bigger guy, but he has been average at best and has certainly not been an answer to the run-stopping needs. Ford cannot even get on a gameday roster.
DL of past GB SB champions were much better at the job DL do than the guys that GB is trotting out there now, thats a verifiable FACT.
Would new and better DL provide the leverage needed for this defense to turn the corner and be championship caliber?
I would love to have a retrospective post that addresses this question AFTER the next GB SB Trophy later this year (early next)
bash you will,
Go aheaddeserves!
glimmer correct? Whoa!
;-(o inflate zipper
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 12:46 pm
"Go ahead and beat on Stocky all you want."
Thanks, whenever he posts inane drivel I will.
As for the DL group there's only about two groups on other teams I'd trade them for. Wyatt, LVN, Brooks and Wooden all need to take another step but in the new system I would bet at least two, and maybe three, of them will.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 01:36 pm
He drove everybody else away now.
My point is he already wrecked Acme.
And now you want him to wreck
cheesehead, where No body can reply.
Acme use to be good.
Now their just another site.
Until game day.
DoubleJ
May 06, 2024 at 02:19 pm
LLCHESTY makes very valid points. Just because you don't agree with him doesn't mean he "wrecked Acme." I'd say that it is you that is wrecking cheesehead.
barutanseijin
May 06, 2024 at 03:04 pm
At least 1/2 the posts on Acme are in response to their tireless troll, who isn’t a quarter as clever as he thinks he is. It’s that stupid fucking fox that’s ruined Acme.
Until they get that under control, that’s not much point in wading into their comment section.
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 03:17 pm
Pretty sure you meant they're.
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 07:31 pm
You would like the bitching that goes on on that game day thread. 🙄
LLCHESTY
May 07, 2024 at 12:04 pm
You replied so wrong again.
Coldworld
May 06, 2024 at 08:41 am
More made up “facts”? The Packers DL has not been among the worst rated. It’s tended to be around or slightly above middle.
Moreover, this isn’t going to be our old DL or approach throughout the front 7. For a guy who had been keening non stop about the need to return to 4:3 as a solution and better use of talent, you now don’t like the talent or see any difference?
For a guy who wanted a CB or a ILB loud and long, you new critical perfidy is the failure to add to the DL? You really don’t know what you are talking about, just what you read last and imagine.
The usual claptrap and self contradiction.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 10:12 am
Made up.?
Just stop.
The return to the front 4, is
the start to what won in the past.
But 6 yrs of denying that, has cost us.
Along with 8 yrs of Bad DCs and Just Clark.
The All in never worked
as long as there was just clark.
I have always suggested a DL, if they fit!
You can't deny that.
So THIS Draft is slam for the past 14.?
Well CW. - I said the DL stunk in 2024..
That he could take a safety first 3 rds.
Because they were better than the DL.
But you forgot that this is Gute.
That CBs are what he coached.
And Stokes was a Bust and IR guy.
He had his chance @ shut -down corner.
And everyone knows you build a Team with
CBs and Ots.
You draft the DL for the super-Bowl.
All of which your points are to get MLF Fired.
I know what it takes to win a super-Bowl.
And so does Los Vegas.
Grow up you big Blowhard.
And stop trying to find fault with everyone.
dobber
May 06, 2024 at 10:37 am
"The return to the front 4, is
the start to what won in the past."
Actually, they went to the base 3-man front and won the SB with Dom Capers.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 10:50 am
Go back and read my post again.
Who did they have with RAJI?
IT wasn't until raji got moved they
screwed up.
- Read it -
It's best to return-
when you can't find the right front three.
In fact some lines just need that star player.
Who are star players beside Clark.
I never wanted Wyatt because he was just a DT.
And Not in the same mode as Clark.
By returning to the 4 front.
He just might return to why he was a #1 pick.
But I made that quite clear he was the wrong DT
for the packers. Maybe the 4 front helps him and Clark.
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 12:18 pm
Got moved? Raji retired you hopeless joke of a commenter. There was two Watts, they played for Houston and Pittsburgh.
DoubleJ
May 06, 2024 at 12:53 pm
"I never wanted Watt because he was just a DT."
TJ Watt is an Edge player and JJ Watt was a DE. The other Watt is Derek but he is a FB for the Steelers. None of them are/were DTs.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 01:39 pm
Missed the y .
You know it was Wyatt.
DoubleJ
May 06, 2024 at 02:01 pm
Actually I don't know that you meant Wyatt since TT could have drafted TJ Watt and there are/were Watt's in the NFL on D.
dobber
May 06, 2024 at 02:09 pm
I did.
I read and grade student papers for a living, so I know convoluted, nonsensical crap when I see it.
I'm also pretty familiar with people trying to reinterpret and reframe what they said after they've been called on missing the target.
It's comical when you try tell us what we really think but you can't get a coherent thought out and in print on your own.
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 03:21 pm
How many papers do you grade with random capital letters and murdered semicolons?
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 05:29 pm
Still Smoking in Bathroom ::;;;;;;;
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 06:33 pm
Hey, you know what one is, now learn how to use them!
DoubleJ
May 06, 2024 at 12:50 pm
"But you forgot that this is Gute.
That CBs are what he coached."
Gute was a LB coach at UW-La Crosse from 1995-1996. That is all the coaching he did. After that he went on to become a scout and then into different front office roles.
"He had his chance @ shut -down corner.
And everyone knows you build a Team with
CBs and Ots."
Who was the "shutdown" corner he could have drafted? DeJean? If so you should really read more because multiple places have said that DeJean wasn't a good fit in Hafley's D. Had this been Barry's D he would have been ideal BUT Barry is thankfully gone.
Besides you who says you build a team with CBs and OTs? If you cannot get pressure on the QB it doesn't matter if you have a team of Deon Sanders CBs you will get burned. At the same time you can have marginal players at CB and do quite well if you get consistent pressure (See Tampa's 2020 season).
"I know what it takes to win a super-Bowl."
Do you now? Since when were you a professional football player that went to the Super Bowl. Or are you saying that you took your Madden football team to the Super Bowl on Rookie with the AI turned down to rock intelligence and therefore you know what it takes?
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 01:46 pm
I'm only going to reply 1 time to You.
In My last Mock, I had a trade up for CB.
He had his choice, before Detroit, if he went up.
Ot and CBs was a Ron Wolf comment.
Email him.
DoubleJ
May 06, 2024 at 02:05 pm
"In My last Mock, I had a trade up for CB.
He had his choice, before Detroit, if he went up."
Great that was a MOCK draft. No one cares about YOUR mock draft. Not a single mock draft came at all close to what actually happened. Thing is the Packers didn't want a CB in R1. They quickly drafted Morgan after Arnold was announced. Then they got what might have been the CB steal of the draft in Kalen King. A player that after his 2022 season was viewed as CB 1 or 2 going into 2023. He had a bad year and didn't test well which dropped his stock. The thing is he showed high level play on film so we know he can do it.
"Ot and CBs was a Ron Wolf comment."
Why don't you find the comment and link it. You made the claim it is your responsibility to provide the evidence.
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 07:34 pm
"Well CW. - I said the DL stunk in 2024.."
Fortune teller now.
Leatherhead
May 06, 2024 at 12:42 pm
''''More made up “facts”? The Packers DL has not been among the worst rated. It’s tended to be around or slightly above middle. '''
Thank you for that fact. It's pretty much what I've said about the defense in general, the last several years. Average-ish.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 01:52 pm
I truthfully should have specified against the run.
The problem is you want specifics.
When leaving a comment to an article.
I'm not going to write a Thesis on who's right.
DoubleJ
May 06, 2024 at 02:05 pm
"I'm not going to write a Thesis on who's right."
Well we already know that if it is you posting we know it isn't you.
barutanseijin
May 06, 2024 at 03:10 pm
Just write your usual postmodern poetry / koan. It’s more entertaining.
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 06:37 pm
I thought of it more of Benji escaping from Faulkner's The Sound and the Fury, but to each their own. 😉
greengold
May 06, 2024 at 09:15 am
The star of the D class, IMO, in the TRENCHES, was NT T'Vondre Sweat. TEN stole him off the board at Pick #38. He was my #1 Overall pick for GB to realize the dream.
My #2 Overall pick for GB was LB Edgerrin Cooper.
Gutekunst should have drafted Sweat at #25. Maybe...
However, the man did go TRENCHES, securing Jordan Love's backside with LT Jordan Morgan. There was NO way I could argue against that selection.
Who plays more snaps? Who is the greater risk to BUST?
I'm happy with what we have, especially adding TWO rocket fueled destroyers in Edgerrin Cooper and Javon Bullard at other, more needy positions of need.
Think about it. We probably have one of the best NTs in the NFL, Kenny Clark, but we don't play Kenny Clark at his most effective position, NT.
(back of skull blows off)
Coldworld
May 06, 2024 at 10:53 am
He may have been off out board for off field reasons, not merely the headlines prior to the draft.
Hafley doesn’t appear particularly interested in big run first DTs. It looks and he sounds like like he wants predominantly penetration and disruption types. Kenny Clark, Slaton and maybe Ford seem to be enough DT types, which suggests we won’t see old style 2 DT lines very much, even in base. The current DL group suggests more agility and explosion will be the focus. I’m guessing too, of course, or at least inferring speculatively.
Leatherhead
May 06, 2024 at 12:43 pm
''''Hafley doesn’t appear particularly interested in big run first DTs. '''
Perhaps Hafley realizes that stopping the pass is more important than stopping the run.
dobber
May 06, 2024 at 02:16 pm
In this age of ball-control passing, rotating doors at RB, and chunk plays, most OCs can't make themselves stick with the run for any amount of time....even when it's making big plays.
Can't tell you how many times this last season teams would be making yards on the ground at will, and they'd drop back the QB and I thought, "you're doing the Packers a favor".
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 07:40 pm
They did give up 200 yards rushing 4 times so some OC's weren't afraid to stick with it. Doing that against DeVito and the Giants should have been the end of Barry.
DoubleJ
May 06, 2024 at 02:17 pm
Maybe Hafley knows that 1 gap systems need penetrating players more than bulky guys to suck up blockers.
TKWorldWide
May 06, 2024 at 07:19 pm
I’d be willing to wager Hafley knows a thing or two about defense.
Possibly even more than our collective here. 😉
DoubleJ
May 06, 2024 at 12:57 pm
"Who plays more snaps? Who is the greater risk to BUST?"
Sweat is a 2 down player only. He has had weight, endurance, and legal problems. Taking him earlier than 91 isn't worth the risk IMO. Morgan I think plays more snaps and has less bust potential as well.
DoubleJ
May 06, 2024 at 12:42 pm
Switching DCs I think will make a huge difference for the Packers DL. Previously they were required to be 2 gap players. That means that had the responsibility of taking up space on both sides of the OL in front of them. Basically they had to wait for the OL to declare what way they were going and then hold up for the LBs to make the tackles. Now they are going to be a 1 gap team. That means prior to the snap you are assigned to one side and you go. This is penetration style scheme which fits the players on the DL far better. Wyatt is the perfect example of a 4-3 3-tech DT. His first step penetration ability is great and when he was allowed to do that last year he excelled.
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 12:49 pm
Now the big question is will the LBs take on blocks. From what I watched of Cooper he didn't look too interested and Walker can but often doesn't so he leaves RBs with avenues to escape.
dobber
May 06, 2024 at 02:19 pm
^^THIS^^
When your DL one-gaps, more gap responsibility passes down to the next level and they need to be ready to take on climbing OL....but your DL make more plays behind the LOS, too.
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 03:28 pm
I have a feeling Hafley's defense will give up some big plays but will also put offenses in more long down and distance situations. That's when I think we see the big difference from Barry. He's going to use a lot more disguises and sim pressures to confuse QBs. No more losing to the Tommy DeVito types.
GregC
May 06, 2024 at 07:16 am
Well, this is the big question. In terms of personnel, they should be better. The only player of significance who they lost was De'Vondre Campbell, and he was a pretty ordinary player last year who was fighting through injuries. They added Xavier McKinney and two rookies--Edgerrin Cooper and Javon Bullard--who could really make an impact. Rashan Gary will be fully recovered from his ACL injury. Karl Brooks and Colby Wooden had promising rookie seasons and could make a jump in their second seasons. And who knows, maybe Eric Stokes will be healthy and effective. Even if Joe Barry was still DC, there would be reason for optimism. I'm hoping that with Hafley there aren't so many of those weird lapses and communication problems that happened too often with Barry.
This will be Hafley's first time coordinating an NFL defense. I don't know to what extent he coordinated his defense at Boston College, and that was such a different situation that I'm not sure how much it would show us about how his Packers defense is going to play. He was co-cordinator at Ohio State that one year, so that wasn't really his defense either. I've heard that he makes things simple for the players, and yet his defense sounds complicated, with various alignments and lots of interchangeable parts. I think it will be pretty good, but it could be kind of a mess at times, especially early in the season. I also wonder if the defense will be stout enough to handle an offense that runs the ball straight at them repeatedly. I really have no idea how this is all going to play out.
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 07:34 am
They could still be vulnerable to interior runs. Neither Walker and Cooper are great in block deconstruction and would rather run around than take on blocks. I would have liked someone stouter between the tackles but there's not too many OCs in the league patient enough to steadily run between the tackles. Unfortunately the 49ers and Eagles are two of them so we should get a good taste of how Hafley plans to stop a strong running team in the 1st game.
Johnblood27
May 06, 2024 at 08:44 am
yo chesty, lets think about an occasional Mike in the person of McDuffie or Hopper.
2 guys better than Walker or Cooper at being thumpers in the traditional mold.
The parts seem to be in the locker room,, can the chef blend them into a gourmet recipe?
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 12:51 pm
? One is 228 lbs and the other is 231 lbs. Not sure that's what you want in the middle when O linemen are going to have free shots at them.
Johnblood27
May 06, 2024 at 09:34 pm
They are downhill players and in todays NFL, that substitutes for a 255 lb lumbering mike.
When Mr 255 is in at LB, the offense simply isolates any player on him and passes toa first down or more.
LLCHESTY
May 07, 2024 at 12:41 am
No one said anything about a 255 MLB but 230 is very light for a between the tackles LB and OC's with a good run game will take advantage.
Johnblood27
May 07, 2024 at 09:50 am
I wrote the above before I saw Hafleys presser.
He also used the exact Mr 255 in his reasoning of how Coop and Quay are plenty big enough to be run stoppers.
Its a new ballgame. Think basketball on grass... not saying that I like it, but it is the new reality.
Coldworld
May 06, 2024 at 10:40 am
Yes, this is my biggest concern. How will this run and fill offensive defense cope against good OL that block effectively. It sounds good on paper, but how the personnel combine and are used is the key. It seems to be predicated in speed to the ball/QB but the players have to get there and wrap up. We can’t all be going around blocks not through them.
A lot of this D is still us guessing, which is why I keep writing that we need to see what it actually entails and how the front 7 group is used and made up on game days. It is clear from the draft Hafley has a vision for the skillsets he wanted most and will be more exciting I am sure, but it’s got to be conceptually sound for that to be a good thing.
mrtundra
May 06, 2024 at 07:31 am
Super??? That's a big ask for a defense and scheme that hasn't been on the field yet. But here's hoping!
Coldworld
May 06, 2024 at 07:36 am
This D is still something of a question mark in terms of its details. However, it looks like it’s going to be more aggressive verses the run and completion and less focused on just limiting gains. That likely means more big plays but more turnovers on downs as well as interceptions and fumbles.
Essentially it seems to be focused on stopping the run first then forcing the pass more and competing with that at the catch point. That would be a significant change. I also think we will see a lot more personnel change situationally and variation by opponent to try to invite errors and mismatches.
If it works, it should mean less time on the field overall and thus more time for the O, which should in itself be the best form of defense. Especially if the retooled RB attack can be more consistent in supporting extended drives, which I think is conceivable.
I think that this D is going to be more fun to watch than we’ve seen in a long time. That is not an insignificant bonus for me. The question beyond that is can Hafley make more out of his players and make it work as intended. Based on the past, that could take till November to really start to happen. Patience will be called for.
Johnblood27
May 06, 2024 at 08:47 am
Coldwater, patience is extremely thin for a GBP defense even given a new general and scheme.
I hope it is haf(ley) a season or less to show out some improvements or the natives will be sharpening their pitchforks and buying up all the lighter fluid in town!
Coldworld
May 06, 2024 at 11:17 am
All new defenses take time to gel historically. We need to expect that. Whether Hafley’s will is unknown, but he deserves a fair shot. If his scheme is a disaster then you are right, there will be real and significant questions about how we got to that point.
However, at this point we seem to have a coach with a clear vision and I see no reason to write it off simply because it doesn’t look to be what many imagined a 4:3 would bring. The die have been rolled, now we need to wait for them to settle. At this point we know virtually none of the details. My surmise is it’s going to not just be very different from Barry, but also from the classic 4:3 Ds we remember.
T7Steve
May 06, 2024 at 01:19 pm
I think it's not so much how we see Hafley is doing or the D as a whole.
It's how MLF takes responsibility and how long a rope he gives. He took a great step last season making coaches AND players accountable on and off the field. Want no steps backwards for this young team.
I think he'll be the man and he made the right choice.
It's very exciting times in Title Town!
Johnblood27
May 06, 2024 at 09:32 pm
The fir had been rolled, now we need to wait for them to settle.
Hey Stocky, can you interpret this for me? ;-)
Since'61
May 06, 2024 at 07:37 am
It's too early to evaluate how well the defense will play or how long it will take for the players to learn the new defense. It may be up to the offense to carry the team early in the season as the the mew defense is implemented. Hopefully we will see improvement on the defense each game as the season goes on.
I was disappointed that the Packers did not select a DL during this year's draft. I still have questions about how well the DL will play against the run. Maybe moving to a 4-3 or 4-2-5 will help the run defense. The bottom line is that we won't know until they get on the field during the regular season.
Thanks, Since '61
Coldworld
May 06, 2024 at 07:56 am
I still have no clear idea how the DL is anticipated to function. How they use the pieces will be a big a factor in determining how well the talent fits and thus performs. It does seem to be implied that they have more confidence in guys like Slaton and Ford as run stuffing options than some here as well as the fit of the rest of the stable.
PackEyedOptimist
May 06, 2024 at 08:13 am
I doubt very much that "they have confidence in Ford as a run stuffer." He has been absolutely AWFUL against the run his entire college and professional careers.
Classic "Looks like Tarzan plays like Jane."
Coldworld
May 06, 2024 at 08:54 am
Then they have plan B, which was really my point. They are confident in something and Hafley’s wish list doesn’t seem to have been focussed on that. They may be misguided, but the fact that they seem confident seems pretty clear at this point. If he’s as bad as you make out, I’m surprised he’s still on the 90, so perhaps they see something. I doubt it’s his burst to get to the passer.
PackEyedOptimist
May 06, 2024 at 10:46 am
I think the "Plan B" is just to be aggressive and accept gash plays and hope they can get enough "big plays" by the defense to balance off the big plays by the offense. I'm willing to see how it goes.
I think they've just kept hoping they could develop Ford, because he's so huge and has so little fat, but there have been zero signs of improvement so far.
Coldworld
May 07, 2024 at 08:47 am
Ford is a complete mystery to me, good or bad. He hasn’t played but Barry did not like heavy fronts so it’s hard to tell what threat means. Hopefully this summer sheds some light on him now Barry is gone.
LLCHESTY
May 07, 2024 at 12:11 pm
That run on DTs early in the 2nd probably pushed them out of mind, although they showed a lot of interest in Boyd and he dropped quit a bit from consensus. Maybe his testing made them question whether he could beat out Slaton or not. Next year it could be a need or a priority depending on what happens with Clark.
GregC
May 06, 2024 at 10:42 am
Yeah, I don't see how Ford makes the team this year. Maybe if Slaton gets hurt, but as you note, it's questionable whether Ford is good enough to fill in for Slaton. They must have kept him around for some reason though.
PackEyedOptimist
May 06, 2024 at 08:18 am
I'm also concerned about the defensive line's ability to stop the run, though my impression is that this defense will "roll the dice" with penetration and aggressive coverage, hoping that the TFLs, sacks, interceptions, and fumbles-caused will make up for the "gash plays" that are a result of this style. So in theory, the defensive line won't exactly be expected to "stop" the run as much as it is hoped to cause changes of possession due to TFLs. A more aggressive single-gap, blitz-prone approach can also create more offensive holding penalties.
If we had a couple superstar penetrators I'd be more optimistic.
We shall see.
Coldworld
May 06, 2024 at 09:07 am
One of the things I think we can infer from the draft and statements before and since id that, in a Hafley D, the rush is not necessarily from the front as it has been under Barry.
Whether run or pass, the role of the ILBs and nickel seems to include more attacking capability, against run or pass. In the past Hafley has tended to use that approach and attack up the middle.
As I said, I’m not sure how this all comes together? But I get the impression that it’s a more fundamentally different approach than our discussions often reflect.
GregC
May 06, 2024 at 08:24 am
I was fine with them not taking a DL because with the switch to the 3-4 they are essentially converting 3 DL positions into 2 DT positions. They currently have 5 players for those two positions--Clark, Wyatt, Slaton, Brooks, and Wooden--and none of them are bad.
dobber
May 06, 2024 at 09:37 am
I might argue that Wooden is more of an even-front DE than DT, but if his snaps come mostly on passing downs it's probably not that important. They'll probably get some inside passing down help from Gary and Van Ness, too.
GregC
May 06, 2024 at 10:36 am
I read recently that Wooden has bulked up and now weighs in the 290s. I don't think he's going to play on the end.
dobber
May 06, 2024 at 02:03 pm
That I didn't know.
<<Tips hat>>
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 03:32 pm
In his press conference today Hafley made it sound like both Walker and Cooper will get chances to rush off the edge. Whether that means from the Edge spot or not who knows. The idea of Gary crashing down while Walker or Cooper attack from the Edge sounds like fun though.
stockholder
May 06, 2024 at 05:08 pm
If you're disappointed they didn't take a DL.
Then you have No faith in the players on
the DL. Who are you calling into Question?
Clark-
Because if they took one.
Wyatt is a Bust -
Or Clark is gone.
Slaton
2 Rookies.
Or did you Love Lowrey that much.
PackEyedOptimist
May 06, 2024 at 07:47 am
Not only is our roster talented, it is INCREDIBLY young!
Just look at this, these are the players on the roster who are 25 YEARS OLD OR YOUNGER (keeping in mind that there is typically "potential for improvement" through a player's 25th year, (after that, it usually is "they are who they are). Literally ALL of the players on this list can be expected to improve:
QB: Jordan Love, Sean Clifford, Michael Pratt
RB: MarShawn Lloyd, Emanuel Wilson, FB Henry Pearson, Ellis Merriweather
WR: Christian Watson, Romeo Doubs, Jayden Reed, Dontayvion Wicks, Bo Melton, Malik Heath, Grant DuBose, Thyrick Pitts
TE: Luke Musgrave, Tucker Kraft, Ben Sims, Joel Wilson
OT: Zach Tom, Rasheed Walker, Jordan Morgan, Travis Glover, Caleb Jones, Luke Tenuta, Kadeem Telfort
OG: Sean Rhyan, Trente Jones
C: Josh Myers, Jacob Monk
DT: Karl Brooks, Colby Wooden, Jonathan Ford
DE: Lukas Van Ness, Kingsley Enagbare, Brenton Cox, Kenneth Odumegwu, Arron Mosby, Deslin Alexandre
LB: Quay Walker, Edgerrin Cooper, Isaiah McDuffie, Ty’Ron Hopper, Christian Young
CB: Eric Stokes, Carrington Valentine, K King, Zyon Gilbert
S: S Xavier McKinney, J Bullard, Evan Williams, Kitan Oladapo, Anthony Johnson Jr., Benny Sapp, Tyler Coyle
K: Anders Carlson, Jack Podlesny
P: Daniel Whelan
Honestly, barring injury or players who leave as free agents, it looks like our roster is set for the next four years other than maybe a DT, CB, and DE, and maybe one more OL.
PackEyedOptimist
May 06, 2024 at 08:03 am
If you're interested, here are the "in-their-prime, but-probably-won't-get-better players who are 26 and 27:
26: Rashan Gary, Josh Jacobs, Devonte Wyatt, Keisean Nixon, TJ Slaton, AJ Dillon, Samori Toure, Robert Rochell, Royce Newman
27: Jaire Alexander
It's possible, of course, that the change of defense will allow Devonte Wyatt and Keisean Nixon to "improve," but I'm not counting on that.
Leatherhead
May 06, 2024 at 12:47 pm
People are being harsh regarding Nixon.
All he did was play in all 17 games, unlike Stokes and Alexander and Savage.
He was our second leading tackler
He had more snaps on defense than most of our guys, and he also played 200 snaps on special teams.
Additionally, watch him down the stretch. He was a very solid DB for us.
I also think that if our coverage improves a little bit this year, Gary could have a monster year.
RCPackerFan
May 06, 2024 at 10:18 am
It really is crazy how young this team is.
They have 1 player 30 or older on the current roster. That is Preston Smith at 31.
They have 3 guys that are 29. Eric Wilson, Matt Orzech, Greg Joseph. And there is a chance that none of them are on the team, or at least 2 of them aren't.
Vachio
May 06, 2024 at 07:48 am
I feel like last year's ranking was deceptive. Teams didn't need to score a lot of points to beat the Packers. They knew if they got a 10 point lead, they could run the clock out at will with little resistance. When any team needed to score, they generally did. When they needed a critical first down, they got it. It would be awesome to see those trends reversed.
ImaPayne
May 06, 2024 at 09:45 pm
Or put another way could it be worse? Im a firm believer you need ballers on defense and we have none
RCPackerFan
May 06, 2024 at 08:00 am
"But is the defense going to be good enough to help the team to a Super Bowl? Does it even need to be? We’ve heard forever that “defense wins championships”. But is that still true? Or have the modern day rules, most all of which favor the offense, made it possible to simply outscore opponents all the way to a championship game? "
First question. Is this defense good enough to help win a Super Bowl?
We obviously won't know until they start playing games. But they made the biggest change from a year ago and that was getting an aggressive minded DC. Someone that will not just allow teams to routinely play his CB's 10 yards off the ball and allow easy completions. This is the biggest change they could have made.
I don't think changing from 3-4 to 4-3 is much of a difference. They will mostly play 4 on the line and 2 off the ball LB's and 5 DB's probably 75% of the time. So there isn't that much of a change in terms of positions on the field. But what will change is how Hafley uses the players. I don't know how much he will blitz, but with Cooper and Walker I think they have 2 guys that could become effective blitzers.
While the DC change will be the biggest change they have significantly upgraded some positions. First they overhauled the Safety spot. The only safety returning that might earn a roster spot is Anthony Johnson Jr. And he might not make it. The next spot they overhauled is ILB. They let Campbell go and brought in Cooper and Hopper. We will see how they all get deployed but they are already expecting Cooper to be an upgrade.
One of the biggest improvements for the defense will come from within though. The players taking jumps. We should see jumps from players like Walker and Wyatt going into year 3. Enagbare could be as well. And players going into year 2 include Van Ness, Wooden, Brooks, Valentine, Johnson Jr.
I believe they have the talent and the right coaching to get us where we want to go. But we will have to wait and see on that.
Next question, have the modern day rules, most all of which favor the offense, made it possible to simply outscore opponents all the way to a championship game?
While the rules have changed, defense is still there to get the key stops, prevent as many TD's as possible, but also to get turnovers. That is an area that I think this team could drastically improve. Having a more aggressive style defense can promote some explosive plays but it can also create more turnover opportunities. One key i believe to minimizing the big plays is having that Safety to erase some blown coverages and whatnot. Getting McKinney could be the eraser that we have been missing.
There were games in which the Barry led defense was playing well all game. But when the game was on the line he went into a prevent style defense and it allowed the team to just march down the field and get within FG range or down for a TD. Getting those stops at key times can be the difference from going to the dance or going home.
Johnblood27
May 06, 2024 at 08:52 am
Does RC stand for "Right Conclusions"?
Bravo Sir, well done!
RCPackerFan
May 06, 2024 at 09:31 am
Sure. lol
Cheezehead72
May 06, 2024 at 08:12 am
So they way I look at it is if you have a top 10 O and D you will make the playoffs. Anything better than that just makes you have a chance for a better seeding. We can do both this year but yes the D has to prove it first. You get in the playoffs and you have a chance for the SB.
Johnblood27
May 06, 2024 at 08:53 am
whoa there lefty, slow down a bit... Im not keeping up...
LeotisHarris
May 06, 2024 at 08:30 am
Now is as good of a time as any, I guess, but it's only May. I understand it's exciting to have new players and a new DC. A new and improved D now with 20% more aggressiveness! Opposing OCs hate this one simple trick in Jeff Hafley's D scheme!
To quote Kevin Greene; "“The true meaning of life is to plant trees under whose shade you do not expect to sit,"
Johnblood27
May 06, 2024 at 08:56 am
hey there Friedrich Nietzsche,
...Aristotle, Socrates, Plato, Kant, Qiu or Locke ain't got nuthin on YOU!!!
dobber
May 06, 2024 at 09:45 am
"Have you ever heard of Plato, Aristotle, Socrates? Morons."
--Vezzini
Bitternotsour
May 06, 2024 at 09:25 am
That Nelson Henderson had a hell of a career as an outside linebacker.
ricky
May 06, 2024 at 08:39 am
It seems we're putting a lot of faith and hope in Hafley turning around the defense. They've been mediocre, and it's time for them to step up and play much better. What gives me pause is that the Packers special teams have been consistently at or near the bottom of the league for years. So they hire Rich Bissacia, who had proven himself to be an excellent ST's coach to improve the unit. And they still are bad. In 2022, they were 22nd; in 2023, they were 29th. And this was with an experienced NFL coach, not someone on his first NFL job. I hate being negative, but this is a situation that requires that proverbial grain of salt, not an inborn assumption.
Johnblood27
May 06, 2024 at 08:58 am
How about an inbred assumption?
Does a Kentucky sister say that's OK?
Leatherhead
May 06, 2024 at 09:22 am
Ricky, is there any kind of a correlation between STs and making the playoffs?
dobber
May 06, 2024 at 09:51 am
Yes--every team that makes the playoffs has STs. ;)
Leatherhead
May 06, 2024 at 11:10 am
Thanks for the chuckle. But seriously (bah dump dump) When they say special teams ranking, what are they talking about? FGs? Kickoff and punt, coverage and return?
Are the teams that do the best job covering punts, or kicking off, rise to the top of the standings? The Packers were 29th? and they still made the playoffs and advanced.
Last year, for example, we were 5th in yards/kick return with a 25.3 average. Yay for us. And Houston was #1. But Carolina, the Patriots, and Seahawks are also in the Top5. Where's the relationship? We were also #5 in yards/return on punts. Dallas was #1. Patriots, Falcons and Rams round out the Top 5. If there's a relationship, I'm not seeing it.
The correlation I see, is that the teams that are good at scoring TDs on passes....Cowboys, 49ers, Packers, Dolphins, Lions....make the playoffs and the teams that are poor at it don't make the playoffs. That's a relationship that directly impacts our record, as opposed to some 1.4 yards/something ranking on special teams.
ricky
May 06, 2024 at 11:32 am
Go back to the SF playoff game. Yes, the offense went into a deep freeze, but the game was very winnable. Instead, because of ST's giving up a TD to the 49er's on a blocked punt, they lost. And if the Packers didn't think ST's needed to be improved, why did they bring in Bisaccia and pay him so much? And do I have to bring up Brandon Bostick trying to be a ST's hero in the Seattle game, instead of simply doing his job? Or, on a brighter note, how about the contributions of Desmond Howard in the 1996 Super Bowl victory over New England? Yes, ST's can make a difference.
Leatherhead
May 06, 2024 at 03:27 pm
YEs, let's blame the loss on a long snapper instead of an offense that couldn't generate squat after their first possession.
ricky
May 06, 2024 at 04:52 pm
I specifically said the Packers offense went into a deep freeze. But it wasn't as if the 49er's offense was an unstoppable force. That ST's blunder by the Packers was the only TD against them the entire game. But, as always, you win or lose as a team.
However, the point of my original post was that hiring a new coach doesn't automatically translate to improvement. We all hope it does, but there are no guarantees. The only hope is that if Hafley becomes a liability, LaFleur will make a move sooner than he did with Barry.
Leatherhead
May 06, 2024 at 07:26 pm
With these FA moves, and this draft, that's a nice talent infusion. If we could have a healthy Alexander and Stokes, along with McKinney and Bullard and Cooper that's an upgrade on 5 positions on the defense.
I hope Hafley gives people what they want: A run-stuffing, gap-shooting, attacking defense. Me? All I want is to hold teams to around 20 or less. The gamble here is that we're going to create enough takeaways that it offsets any yardage or point totals. I've seen this tried, I've tried it myself, but I've rarely seen it actually work over a full season. It's enough to make me skeptical.
Bitternotsour
May 06, 2024 at 07:36 pm
It's the classic "be careful what you wish for"
My fear is that MLF doesn't have the courage of his convictions
dobber
May 06, 2024 at 09:50 am
"It seems we're putting a lot of faith and hope in Hafley turning around the defense."
I think we're hoping the defense will play more consistently. There were good defensive efforts under Barry, but there were also too many piss-poor performances. We're putting faith in the fact that consistency will be on the GOOD performances.
Leatherhead
May 06, 2024 at 09:21 am
The 2020 defense was good enough if we hadn't turned it over twice resulting in 14 points.
The 2021 defense was good enough if we had scored any points.
The 2022 defense was good enough to give up fewer points than the Super Bowl champion
The 2023 defense was good enough to shut down the league's top offense on the road.
Put an offense on the field that can consistently score 25-30 points and this defense is good enough to get to the Super Bowl.
Bitternotsour
May 06, 2024 at 09:32 am
10th in scoring defense last year. Hafley is in a very difficult spot, because aggressive defense gives up big plays, and the fans and his boss don't really like big plays.
Minnesota had a crazy aggressive defense last year, and you may recall that GB shredded them. Shredded them. I'm optimistic about next year because Love is truly in the sweet spot, young enough to grow, and a season of experience. The offense is the road to the promised land, we just need a defense that provides speed bumps.
Leatherhead
May 06, 2024 at 11:13 am
Or you could look at the Lions. They stuffed the run, they had a DVOA near the top, and they gave up more points than we did. Is that the defense we want? A defense that stuffs you before they give up a big play?
Offense is the road.
LLCHESTY
May 06, 2024 at 03:35 pm
They also had very little talent at CB so Flores had no choice but to blitz like crazy. It worked for awhile but when they had a couple injuries dancing on the knife led to cuts.
RCPackerFan
May 06, 2024 at 10:13 am
2020 - Lost by 5. Packers defense gave up 4 TD's in the first 6 drives against Bucs. The offense fumbled setting up a close field for the 4th TD. Either way giving up 31 points doesn't make it easy to win against.
2021 - Lost by 3. Packers defense gave up 10 4th quarter points. They gave up 9 plays and 44 yards on the final drive to allow 49ers to win the game.
2022 - Lost by 4. Packers defense gave up a 13 play 8 minute drive to allow the Lions to take the lead late in the 4th quarter.
2023 - Lost by 3. Packers defense gave up 10 4th quarter points. The final drive being a 12 play 5 minute drive which left GB with 1 minute left.
Sure we can say the offense could have played better. They absolutely needed to. But the fact remains that the Defense couldn't get the key stops in key moments of the games that it need to win the games. In 2020 GB never had the lead. But the other 3 games the defense gave up 4th quarter leads.
dobber
May 06, 2024 at 10:32 am
The object is to not leave yourself in a position where a last minute drive beats you, or that you need late drives to win football games. If you're going to dance on the edge, the really little things become decisive.
That said: I concur with LH in that it's all about the math. The last two seasons, the Packers were about league average in pts scored and pts allowed, and they ended up with records around .500. In the three 13-3 seasons, that +/- was a much larger number. That gets you favorable seeding and chances to play at home. Playoff games are all about matchups...if you're proficient and consistent on both sides of the ball, you're hard to beat in a one-and-off, but it doesn't mean you can't have a bad day or an opponent has a really good day (which I'd argue was the case in the Packers-Dallas matchup last year)....or that you just run into a team better suited to exploit your weaknesses.
RCPackerFan
May 06, 2024 at 11:55 am
In a perfect world our offense scores every drive and the defense doesn't allow them to score once. Unfortunately we don't live in a perfect world. No offense or defense is perfect.
If we look purely at stats its easy to say that the defense has been good enough. They rank in the middle and should be good enough.
However when you look more closely at what happens in the games its easy to see why they made the changes. One major problem under Barry has been not being able to finish games at key moments. This year alone proved that.
-Week 2 against the Falcons. They are up 24-12 going into the 4th quarter. They give up 13 points in the 4th quarter and lose by 1.
-Week 3 Packers make and epic comeback. Scoring 18 points in the 4th to take the lead. However people forget that the defense allowed them to drive from the 25 to the 28 for a game winning FG, but they missed the 46 yard FG.
-Week 4 Lions took a 27-3 half time lead. But GB scored 8 in the 3rd to make it 27-11. They scored again at the start of the 4th to make it 27-17. With a full quarter left. Packers defense gave up a 14 play 75 yard drive which took almost 9 minutes off the clock. Odds of winning that game were low, but they brought it to within 10 with a full quarter to go.
-Week 5 Packers had a 13-10 4th quarter lead, and lost 17-13. (From a Josh Jacobs TD).
-Week 7 Packers had a 17-16 4th quarter lead. Lost 19-17
-Week 14 Packers had a 22-21 lead with 1:33 left on the clock. Packers allowed an 8 play 57yard drive to give up the game winning FG.
-Week 16 Packers are up 30-16 at the start of the 4th. They win 33-30. But they allowed the Panthers (worst team in the league) to tie it up at 30.
The blown leads are what really killed this team. And allowing very average at bet QB's to look like HOF caliber QB's is not a good look. Its the situational football that needs to improve.
DoubleJ
May 06, 2024 at 01:03 pm
"Week 16 Packers are up 30-16 at the start of the 4th. They win 33-30. But they allowed the Panthers (worst team in the league) to tie it up at 30."
Don't forget that the Panthers got the ball back with 19 seconds and in 2 plays were in FG range. Had 1 more second been on the clock they could have tied the game.
RCPackerFan
May 06, 2024 at 01:23 pm
Yeah great point.
LambeauPlain
May 06, 2024 at 10:36 am
I am so very pleased Barry Ball Prevent (The Win) defense is now relegated to just a bad memory.
Show of hands...who believes Barry will be an NFL DC again? He's had 3 stints, 7 years of consistent failure.
I am not expecting Hafley to turn the Packers into the MW version of the Ravens, but if they lose games late like they did often with Barry Ball, as least they are going down swinging. They will be the side of the ball dictating to the Offense for a change.
There sill be growing pains, but I believe the D players are going to enjoy coming work.
RCPackerFan
May 06, 2024 at 12:45 pm
I am definitely happy he is gone. Nothing against him personally, I just think his track record speaks for itself as a DC. I was willing to give him a chance, but he simply wasn't good enough.
I have no idea how good Hafley will be. If he can get us over the top or not. But he does have talent to work with.
There will definitely be growing pains. That is to be expected. But I think by middle of the season we will start to get a good idea of how this defense will be.
Leatherhead
May 06, 2024 at 11:24 am
This is just not true RC.
Two of those first six scoring drives immediately followed offensive turnovers that resulted in 14 points. 31-14=17.
In 2021, the defense did not give up 10 4th quarter points, they gave up 3. The only TD SFscored that day was against special teams. Our offensive had a historically bad performance.
In 2022, we held the Lions under their average, but our impotent offense couldn't even get 20 points on the board, on their home field, in a must win game.
2023. Held SF to below their average. Packers score 0 points in the last 20 minutes of the game. An interception turned into 3 points, a 3 and out, A 53 yard run by Jones, followed by impotence, resulted in a missed FG, which is a turnover. And then our final possession , which ended in a turnover. So over the last 20 minutes of the game, while our defense gave up 10 points, our offense turned it over 3 times, had a 3 and out, and scored nothing. And in your view, the loss is on the defense.?
RCPackerFan
May 06, 2024 at 01:22 pm
Sure the 2 turnovers led to points. I don't fault the drive at the 8. But the other one was at midfield. They started the drive on their own 49. Hold them to a FG and its a different game.
21- I forgot that the special teams scored.
But it doesn't help that when they needed the stop in the 4th they gave up 44 yards on 9 plays. and getting them into FG range. They allowed a 12 yard gain on the first play. Then 14 yards on 2nd and 6. Then they gave up 9 on a 3rd and 7 to set them up for the easy FG. If they don't give up that 1st down, they are likely trying to take the lead with a minute left from 55 yards out. They may punt from there at that point.
22- Yes our offense didn't score what they needed to. The offense deserves blame, after all its a team game. But going into the 4th Quarter they had the lead. The Lions drove for a 13 play 75 yard TD drive that consumed 8 minutes. Those drives can kill teams.
23 - Going into the 4th quarter the Packers were up 21-14. They gave up a FG at the beginning of the 4th. Packers offense went 3 and out. 49ers had a 4 minute drive which put the ball at the Packers 10. Packers drove to the 23 and missed a FG. That is not on the offense. They got into scoring range. 49ers then had a 12 play 69 yards TD drive which took 5 more minutes off the clock.
Packers got the ball back with 1:07 left. Love made a bad throw and got intercepted.
The whole point of all this is that the defense let them down countless times this year. They blew a number of 4th quarter leads. and almost blew a few more. We forget that Love was in his first year as a starting QB. The offense had all 1st and 2nd year WR's. This offense was very young yet.
dobber
May 06, 2024 at 02:27 pm
I think the bottom line is: when you're playing playoff--and playoff intensity--games, you need to bring it on both sides of the ball.
jannesbjornson
May 06, 2024 at 04:32 pm
That would also Include the Coach and his ability to stay focused in the Moment. The King freebie with 7 seconds on the board cannot happen to a team who claims to be championship calibre.
GregC
May 06, 2024 at 11:48 am
The Packers defense did not give up 10 fourth quarter points in the playoff loss to the 49ers at the end of the 2021 season. They gave up 3 points. The 49ers scored a touchdown on a blocked punt.
RCPackerFan
May 06, 2024 at 01:22 pm
Yeah i forgot that the special teams gave up the TD.
Ferrari-Driver
May 06, 2024 at 09:28 am
Ken Lass: In 2010, when the Packers last hoisted the Lombardi Trophy, they finished second.
Ken, the previous time when the Packers hoisted the Lombardi Trophy, they finished FIRST.
Of course, what Packer fan wouldn't want that starting defensive line the Packers had that year: Reggie White, Sean Jones, Santana Dotson and Gilbert Brown
LambeauPlain
May 06, 2024 at 10:38 am
And Fritz Schumer was no Joe Barry.
splitpea1
May 06, 2024 at 11:07 am
Brand new scheme, four new safeties (three of them rookies), new starting LB, also a rookie, and a DL that's suited more to rushing than passer than stopping the run...it all means there will be a lot of sifting, sorting, and settling in ahead before we're able to determine whether we have that kind of defense. Expect some growing pains early and some clarity and substantial improvement overall as the season progresses. Run defense is still a concern and the cornerback position may not be fortified enough--we seem to be banking an awful lot on Valentine and Stokes, so we'll see.
If Hafley transforms our defense to a Super Bowl caliber one this quickly, he'll instantly become a head coaching candidate.
brenner
May 06, 2024 at 12:05 pm
The problem with the defense under Barry was not how consistently bad they were, but that they fell apart in crucial times when closing out close games. There were areas that the defense was consistently bad in, run defense tops that list, but allowing the giants to March down the field for the go ahead score was everything wrong with that defense. If Barkley wouldn't have tripped and fumbled on his way to the endzone after turning a 4 yd run into a 40, the soft zones wouldn't have had the chance to blow that game for us. Letting. Baker have a perfect passer rating in Lambeau was another instance where the defense shit the bed.
Lphill
May 06, 2024 at 12:17 pm
this past season the Packers defense played good enough to win in some of the losses, gave up 21 to the Patriots but only scored 17, gave up 17 to the Raider's but only scored 13, gave up 19 to the Broncos only scored 17, 24 to the Giants scored 22 so it was not all on the defense last year, 2 games stand out, the shoot out with the Panthers and their struggling rookie QB, and the Bucs game allowing a MVP type game to Baker Mayfield, much of this was MLf and his inability to make in game or halftime adjustments , he needs to do better as a head coach and play caller.
Bitternotsour
May 06, 2024 at 06:49 pm
Well put.
ImaPayne
May 06, 2024 at 09:31 pm
I know diddly sqat of this coach. Ditto on Barry. To even suggest he can manage a group of vets coached poorly ba Barry and infuse new in tested rookies requires huge abilities this coach may not possess. I would expect at least one year of getting to know before we see cohesiveness. Expecting anything more isn't reality .
Throw in we didn't bring in edge guys so we're what,using Jo Barry's let's rush with line backers it's cheaper plan?
Unless I'm wrong you need edge guys for a 4 3 defense. What do the pack know that no one else does?
LLCHESTY
May 07, 2024 at 12:46 am
If I was you I'd be more worried about Darnold playing QB for your Vikings.
Lphill
May 07, 2024 at 02:49 pm
Brenton Cox Jr will be added to the pass rushers this season, they have plenty of depth.
Pack88
May 11, 2024 at 09:28 pm
I suspect that having lived through the growing pains of Loves first starting year, everyone should calm down a bit! Much was made about Love playing better BUT Love started playing better when the O-line started blocking better. The young receivers started playing better is also true and that integrated w/ better blocking allowed Love to go off script w/o risking his life. I surmise the defense will have a similar challenge. I am hoping by midseason all the major mistakes will be behind them and they start playing championship defense after that. The D-line will be playing new roles this year and it takes time to make "new clothes"fit. I suspect the infusion of youth will mean a faster team making faster mistakes for a while. Should the D follow the blueprint of the O they have a chance but like this year from the 6 or 7 hole- kind of like 2010!