Confessions of a Polluted Mindset - How Deep is Our Love?
The Weekly Packers Brain Drain from Jersey Al.
By JerseyAl

Watching the Packers - Patriots preseason game, I wasn't sure how I felt about Jordan Love's play, especially the first two drives. I decided to go back and replay his three drives and look a little deeper. Here are my thoughts:
Drive 1:
-1st and 10 - Handoff to Jones, 6yds (highlighted this in yesterday's "Three Plays...")
-2nd and 4 - Handoff to Dillon, 5yds
-1st and 10 - Handoff to Dillon, 5 yds
-2nd and 5 - Play fake, half rollout right, immediate pressure, Love trys to dump it off to Deguara, who recovers after having slipped to the ground. Throw is high, Deguara takes a hit, a dangerous pass. As I wrote in yesterday's "Three Plays...," he should have just thrown it into the ground.
-3rd and 5 - This shall be known as "The snap." Myers thought a Patriots DE had entered the neutral zone, so he snapped it early as he is taught to do to try to get a free play. Love was not ready, even appearing to be glancing to his right as the ball was snapped. Ultimately, the DE did flinch, but did not cross the neutral zone, so there was no penalty and the Patriots recovered the fumble. Can't blame Love too much for this, although I'm not sure why he was glancing at something to his right.
Drive 2:
-1st and 10 - Straight drop back, Love finds Musgrave who fakes as if he's blocking and then releases and sits in the hole in front of the dropping linebackers. Easy 10 yard gain. These are the simple yard-gainers that have been absent from the Packers' offense for years.
-1st and 10 - Pitch right to Dillon with Deguara leading. Not much of a hole but Dillon stays right on the ass of Deguara, who takes out the first defender and Dillon plows through another for a 3 yard gain. This is Dillon being decisive and just taking what's there. Last year he would have held up a little looking for a better option and gained nothing,
-2nd and 7 - Fake handoff right, Love with the looping rollout to his left. Love tries an on-the-run throw to Musgrave in what appears to be an open window, but a DB reads the play and comes off his other assignment to step in and break up the pass. When I saw this live, I though Love forced this ball, but he really didn't. He could not have anticipated what the DB did - just a smart play by the Patriots' player.
-3rd and 7 - Straight drop-back, Love finds Romeo Doubs on an in route. Jack Jones is all over Doubs and is trying to jump the route, but Doubs doesn't wait for the ball, he comes back to it a bit, cutting off Jones. When i saw this live, I thought it was a dangerous throw, but it was very much on target and put in a spot that favored Doubs getting to it first. Still, you can't really say Doubs was comfortably open on this route.
-1st and 10 - Shotgun handoff to Dillon with Musgrave coming down the line to block the back side DE. Musgrave does his job, but there's isn't much of a push from Myers and Runyan and the Patriots converge on Dillon, but he still manages to plow forward for 4 yards.
-2nd and 6 - Quick out to Musgrave. Pass is high, requiring Musgrave to stop his momentum to jump up and grab it. Patriots DB was on him immediately and Musgrave did not put up much of a fight to try for extra yards. Just a two yard gain.
-3rd and 4 - Straight drop-back. Love tries to hit Reed on an out route. Reed was closely covered and this could have been a pick six if Reed didn't reach out and get a hand on the ball first. While on target, this was a dangerous throw with the DB in a great position to jump the route.
At this point while watching live, I thought Love was looking a bit shaky and tweeted this:
If the plan was for two offensive series from the #Packers ones tonight, based on the first two drives, I'm scrapping that plan. Bring them out again - they need the work.
— Jersey Al - GBP (@JerseyAlGBP) August 20, 2023
Upon this re-watch, it wasn't as shaky as I originally thought, however, I am delighted that they did come out again for a third possession.
Drive 3:
-1st and 10 - After a holding penalty on the punt return pushes them back to the seven yard line, they immediately take another penalty (false start on Elgton Jenkins), sending them back to their three yard line.
-1st and 13 - I-formation handoff to Dillon who hurtles over a Patriot player who is submarining lead blocker Deguara. Dillon manages to get three yards. Again, Dillon + decisiveness = positive yardage.
-2nd and 10 - Shotgun deep throw to Doubs, He was originally ruled out of bounds but LaFleur challenges and wins. Doubs has a full step on the DB, but the pass was slightly underthrown (which has been a theme all camp for Love and deep ball)s, but Doubs is a battler. He fights off the DB and flashes some Davante-like "late hands" to pull it in while somehow keeping both feet inbounds. A great catch.
-1st and 10 - Fake handoff, Love drops back, is looking deep downfield, doesn't see what he wants, takes off for 13 yards and gets late hit after a slide by a Patriots DL. Zach Tom and Runyan immediately come to his defense and get after the Patriot. Minor skirmish ensues.
-1st and 10 - Handoff to Dillon, picks up 5 yards. More chirping from both teams.
-2nd and 5 - Love in shotgun, fake handoff to Dillon who is alert enough to fall on a blitzing DB, giving Love time to throw a beauty of a pass to Jayden Reed for a touchdown. Great play by all three of those players. However, there was also a unheralded assist from Christian Watson. His chip on the blitzing DB is the reason the DB went to the ground in the first place, allowing Dillon to just fall on him and keep him there.(this was also highlights in my "Three Plays..." yesterday).
Overall, Love wasn't perfect, but he wasn't as shaky as I originally thought over the first two drives. He does appear to have gone deep into learning the playbook and ris comfortable unning the offense. He's just a little less risk-averse than our previous quarterback and this is going to take some getting used to. It may not be great this year, but there's little chance things will go off the deep end with Love at the helm of the offense.
Stranger things - Is there anything weirder than beng more confident in your kicker making a long field goal than an extra point? Fortunately, Carlson seemed to have left his extra point issues from the Bengals game behind and also popped a 52 yard field goal - a good day for Carlson.
Where's Watson? - Psst, did you know that Christian Watson is still on this team? Only 28 snaps (11 snaps versus the Bengals, 17 snaps versus the Patriots), with a total of three targets and two receptions for 6 yards. Should we be concerned? Of course not - I'm just trying to start trouble. He is their #1 WR, no reason to expose him to preseason injury and frankly, I think the Packers are keeping him under wraps and not about to show other teams what their plans are for their #1 weapon come regular season. That's when I expect the Packers to undo the shackles on Watson and go to him early and often against the Bears. That's when they will "Release the Kracken!"
Who's # 4? - If you're asking me, Malik Heath has shown to be the Packers 4th best wide receiver. We haven't seen enough of DuBose, Dontayvion Wicks shows some big-play potential, and Toure has been steady, but Heath has been rock-solid and actually looks the most NFL-ready, despite being undrafted. He makes contested catches and has the "take no prisoners" approach to downfield blocking. His play and attitude says he "wants it" and I think he's going to get it.
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"Jersey Al" Bracco is the Editor-In-Chief, part owner and wearer of various hats for CheeseheadTV.com and PackersTalk.com. He's a lifetime Packers fan living in the land of the Giants (and Jets). Follow Al on twitter at @JerseyalGBP.
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Comments (127)
PackEyedOptimist
August 23, 2023 at 06:21 am
Very interesting analysis Al! Thank you for that!
I’ve been thinking the same thing about Heath; we expected to see Toure shine, but Heath has shone much brighter. He seems like he could become a better Lazard—or maybe more like a James Jones.
I’ve been wondering how a close analysis of Rodgers games last year would compare to Love’s this year. I think a game-by-game comparison (both’s first game, second game, etc) would be interesting.
Guam
August 23, 2023 at 08:03 am
Heath was supposedly slow coming out of college (4.64 40 yard) but his game speed has been just fine at least to my untrained eye. And he catches everything thrown at him and he BLOCKS! Definitely Lazard 2.0. Given how much play Lazard got over the last few years, I see Heath making the roster and getting playing time.
LambeauPlain
August 23, 2023 at 08:26 am
Correct, Guam. And Heath also creates space with his route running. Greg Jennings was not a blazer either, but he was sublime running routes.
His body control in and out of breaks is very shifty and crisp. He's studied the playbook and is on the same "page" with Love. Love is gaining confidence the young rookie will be on the field where the play diagram has him.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 08:56 am
Heath is on the same page with Clifford. That’s where all his plays come from in games. I’d like to see him with Love, but I’d say the same for any true roster candidate beyond Doubs, Reed, Watson plus Musgrave. I know they will take the vast majority of snaps, I know they need to build Chemistry with Love, but I think even Reed is at a point where, if we truly trust others, it’s not going to harm that to sit them and let others he may need to throw to get a run. That’s been mostly the same in practice too.
Thegreatreynoldo
August 23, 2023 at 09:31 am
It is my understanding that Love has yet to get a single snap with any of Heath, Wicks, or Dubose during these preseason games so far. I don't approve and hope to see that Change against Seattle. And if Heath is really viewed as WR #4, he should get game reps.
LLCHESTY
August 23, 2023 at 12:46 pm
I haven't seen or heard anything about the severity of Wicks' hamstring injury but if it's something that's going to linger maybe putting him on the roster and IRing him for a month makes sense. You could cut Heath/Dubose and tell him he's getting resigned the next day. Then keep the better STs player when Wicks returns and hopefully get the other guy to the PS. Obviously a mute point if Wicks can play this week.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 01:13 pm
I think the assumption that Wicks is the better player is at this point a lot less sound than when we signed them. Heath just keeps doing things he’s not supposed to be able to do. He’s obviously under drafted based in this summer.
Right now, if I were a GM looking for a WR who could contribute now, I’d take Heath over Wicks. Wicks may have more upside, but it’s clear Heath was under appreciated. Heath has got it done. If I claim a waived player, I have to roster them. Right now I’d bet on Heath over Wicks to help immediately. Wicks slipped to the 5th in part because he’s slow-slower than Heath from 10-40. That seems to be born out from what I’ve seen. Is that a talent that another GM is going to be excited enough to roster for future upside?
I wouldn’t save Wicks by exposing Heath. I’d IR Wicks and keep him for next year if it’s a long term hammy or I’d carry them both if it’s not and I really liked Wicks’ upside. Right now, if I risk one it’s Wicks. If I play one it’s Heath.
LLCHESTY
August 23, 2023 at 05:23 pm
I don't think there's much risk in cutting player and resigning him the next day. Most players would rather stay with what they know, unless they have a personal issue with a coach or something.
I thought Wicks looked really good in the Cincy game. Had a couple of nice blocks besides the catches.
https://twitter.com/JakeNFLDraft/status/1693023904833347590?t=JgbS6OKLK-...
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 06:22 pm
I’m not saying there’s generally much risk. I am saying that I see the relative risk between Heath and Wicks differently to what I did 2 months ago. I’ve seen Wicks flash, but I’ve seen Heath do that consistently and, get open regularly against all comers. That last bit is the potential paradigm changer.
Leatherhead
August 23, 2023 at 01:34 pm
TGR….unless guys are injured, it’s Watson, Doubs, Reed, and Toure. If guys get hurt, Heath/Wicks/Dubose will get their chance. Right now, we’re trying to put a team together that can beat Chicago.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 03:14 pm
We should be putting a team together that makes the most of this roster beyond Chicago and even perhaps this season. The two shouldn’t be incompatible with winning our first game.
Leatherhead
August 23, 2023 at 05:40 pm
Coldworld, you never get to go to war with the team you’d like to have. You put your best guys out there and work on things throughout the season. It’s always a work in progress. If these other WRs are players, they’ll get their chance, but right now it’s about winning our first game.
You have a limited period of time, which is why you prioritize.
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 05:50 pm
In a passing league, I keep 7 WR like we did last year:
OFFENSE (25)
QB (2) Love, Clifford
RB (3) Jones, Dillon, Wilson
WR (7) Watson, Doubs, Reed, Toure, Wicks, DuBose, Heath
TE (3) Musgrave, Kraft, Allen
OL (10) Bakhtiari, Jenkins, Myers, Runyan, Tom, Nijman, Walker, Jones, Rhyan, Telfort
DEFENSE (25)
DL (6) Clark, Wyatt, Slaton, Ford, Wooden, Brooks
OLB (6) Gary, Smith, Van Ness, Enagbare, Hollins, Cox Jr.
ILB (3) Campbell, Walker, McDuffie
CB (5) Alexander, Douglas, Stokes, Nixon, Valentine
S (5) Savage, Moore, Johnson Jr., Sapp III, Owens
SPECIAL TEAMS
K Carlson
P Whelan
LS Orzech
packerfanroy
August 23, 2023 at 08:49 pm
Absolutely agree with Leatherhead. Watson, Doubs and Toure are not polished vets who can give up pre-season snaps so guys like Heath/Wicks/Dubose can be deveolped.... Watson, Doubs and Toure ARE the guys being developed/need reps.
LambeauPlain
August 23, 2023 at 05:36 pm
I was reading Heath was catching passes from Love in camp and impressing routinely.
He was taking snaps with the first team Offense today.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 10:00 am
Heath going 5 for 5 for 75 is a big deal. Calling WRs #2 - 5 seems silly, as long as you have a QB who goes for the open man.
mnbadger
August 23, 2023 at 12:35 pm
Sic - going to the open man has been a foreign concept to previous MLF coached team in GB. I wonder why the sudden change?
I feel this simple concept must be the foundation of our passing offense this year.
GPG!
KnockTheSnotOutOfYou
August 23, 2023 at 10:33 am
PEO,
I think the game by game comparison this year to last year is an awesome idea. My vote is yes!
T7Steve
August 23, 2023 at 12:46 pm
Game by game against the same opponent? Game one against game one last year is two different opponents but it will be cool if they're actually counting it as a regular season game not the 4th preseason game.
packerfanroy
August 23, 2023 at 10:07 pm
Kurt Warner does a video series on youtube where he breaks down tape from a bunch of games to give his insights. He did one on the Packers with ARod about mid-season and I'm pretty sure he will do one on the Packers with JLove, probably mid-season also. Probably about as good as you can do for what you want given the differences in teams/rosters this year compared to last.
HarryHodag
August 23, 2023 at 06:37 am
" Musgrave who fakes as if he's blocking and then releases and sits in the hole in front of the dropping linebackers. Easy 10 yard gain. These are the simple yard-gainers that have been absent from the Packers' offense for years."-Jersey Al.
Yup. I'm really excited to see MLF's offense as it was designed. His first season we saw sweeps, running the ball, short passes. We've fully discussed what happened after that year. But with the change at QB we will see a more diverse offense. The Packers have the players to compete and should be a much more ball control type of team.
Guam
August 23, 2023 at 08:08 am
I like what I've seen so far from LaFleur's IOC offense. Pre-snap motion on many plays, use of the middle of the field for short and intermediate passes and Dillon getting the ball from a QB under center. It is early yet, but the Packers might have a better offense than the pundits imagined.
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 06:38 am
Al McWAKEUPITSWEDNESDAY! - Thank you!
We’ve seen Love take a little time to get warmed up before getting hot. Maybe it takes the other guys a little time too. Apparently Aaron Jones & AJ Dillon are immune. I’m hoping for a very heavy dose of these two.
One has to think, in a known passing league, with opposing Ds built to stop the pass, Jones & Dillon could run roughshod over the NFL in a more dedicated attack. It sure would take some pass rush heat off of JL. Doesn’t mean we won’t have a lot of passing, only that it should make our passing game better. Easier. More explosive.
WATSON. I’m glad MLF is hiding Watson’s intended use. NFL !!!
MALIK HEATH. He could seriously contend for WR2. UDFA. Hat’s off, Brian Gutekunst.
*It’s a 2 year plan. Anything good that happens Year 1 with Jordan Love at QB1 is a bonus. Once he gets dialed in…
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 10:04 am
I like Heath but #9 10 11 should contribute to our air attack a LOT. I wouldn't be mad seeing 11 and 88 with the most targets. Of course if Heath can keep up a 100% reception rate?
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 10:33 am
This Packers team has been transforming before our eyes, and will continue to do so throughout the season. I think it's anybody's guess how it all shakes out in the end, but, we certainly have an overabundance of talent at WR. What happens in those situations? Players get stashed or traded. They don't just get released, if the Packers can help it, because WR is a valuable trade commodity in today's NFL.
I'm trusting my eyes on this, and see a very solid 8 NFL-ready WRs on our roster. I also see the most solid (in terms of depth nearly everywhere save for S and TE), talent loaded, size/power/speed team the Packers have fielded to start a season in many, many years. Case in point: when do you see TWO rookie DL come in with NFL-ready size, power, speed and tool chests? wow.
This 2023 season for the Packers has the potential to be really special, loaded with surprises. Hopefully, mostly-all good. There's going to be growing pains with this much youth, everywhere, but I like what I see.
LFG GPG
WestCoastPackerBacker
August 23, 2023 at 10:56 am
Aren't we jumping the gun just a little bit? With 2 preseason games, to proclaim the rookies solid and NFL-ready? Only playing against vanilla defenses, with no game-planning to stop them?
I mean, remember the only two teams that went 0-16 were 4-0 in the preseason? There are a ton of articles out there about this. Winning in the preseason doesn't translate well to the season. Some of the success by the depth guys was had against 2nd and 3rd stringers, and they will be facing starting personnel if they need to play during the season.
It's fun to be excited, but we just haven't seen most of these guys against true NFL competition, so of course they look good. Even this article points out the negatives of Love's performance and how that might translate in the regular season. I am happy to see the new energy but certainly just willing to wait for games before deciding how good the depth is at WR or how good the rookie D-linemen are.
mnbadger
August 23, 2023 at 12:42 pm
WC, your points are all valid. But . . .
I'm still going to remain optimistic - glass at least half full - until I see institutional issues that cause this group to fail:
- injuries
- coaching schemes
- game management by players and staff
- turnovers
Until then, all gas no breaks!
GPG!
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 12:48 pm
I was talking about MY EYE TEST. Heath passed. Seeing him live in practice? He's the real deal. Sorry. It's my own opinion, and I could care less about its timing. I've learned a thing or two having regularly gone to practices over the last 20 years.
Players either pass the eye test or they don't. That's been my experience. DuBose passed as well. So did Musgrave.
What in the AF does Detroilet have to do with anything?
Too much? Too soon? A simple comment in a conversation.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 01:25 pm
I think we all know that the real test is yet to come. I think what we see is potential to be exciting. I’d rather see play from this group than Watkins, Cobb, Lazard, Tonyan and Watson/Doubs. I realize it’s going to be sprinkled with rookie and near rookie mistakes. However, rather those than the incredibly unthreatening O of last year. This DL, front 7, is a lot more exciting than last year. It’s not just offense and no, that won’t all go smoothly either.
I am assuming that Watson and Doubs will be better and maybe stay healthier, it’s true, but I’d rather see Reed and co over Cobb 2022, Musgrave over Tonyan and Lazard. It may not be as reliable or predictable, but so much more potential to make things happen for good as well.
The past had gone, why constantly use it as a benchmark and hark back to it? What we have is looking better than I expected. It’s certainly on the up. It may take a while to ascend, obviously.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 06:18 pm
WCPB, how you managed to get half a vote is a neat trick, lol.
It's funny to see sportswriters saying this team is unproven. I really doubt anyone here is unaware of that.
All we've been able to do so far is evaluate individual talent, and to a lesser extent how guys group together. Gutey has stacked this roster with a LOT of talent, and it's starting to shake out at most positions.
How the team will do this year will be determined after 17 games. (Playoffs? PLAYOFFS?!?)
The thing we can know now is the worst case suckage after major turnover seems to be an unreal fear, and matching last year's record seems feasible.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 06:11 pm
GG, let's look at these supposed weaknesses. We've read some experienced fans say that injuries often sort things out, and that seems to be happening:
S Ford Savage Moore Johnson Owens is only 4 until Moore comes back from injury. I'm not seeing weakness unless MLF starts Ford and Savage and keeps them in while they play poorly.
Look at ILB: Carpenter Walker Phillips Wilson McDuffie. Phillips is the obvious out, Campbell makes 5.
TE: Musgrave Kraft DeGuara Allen, Pearson injured, return unknown. Maybe we forfeit the FB role this year, but Musgrave with a depth of 1 is a HUGE improvement! "The Lazard role" got an upgrade IMHO, and I was a fan of Lazard. Before last year his career reception rate hovered around 75%, just like Davante Adams. I never checked it after last season when he got more targets. If Love and Musgrave connect on 75% of the targets?
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 06:57 pm
S: Seems the weakest links here are last year’s starters end of season in Savage & Ford. Why? Because they offer zero run support. Prefer Moore & Johnson Jr. starting, with Owens & Sapp III backing up. It’s possible Savage returns to his 2020 form, his best season in GB, with a vastly upgraded pass rush.
ILB: We have Campbell & Walker, with all of McDuffie, Wilson, Phillips & Carpenter virtually even. Thought Carpenter was the #3 prior to injury. Gotta be available. I kind of like Wilson the best as #3ILB now. Phillips? I was telling TGR at practice last week, one name keeps popping up to me late in that CIN game, and it was Jimmy Phillips, making plays.
TE: Musgrave should flourish in this offense, with Kraft not far behind. Allen got 8 ST reps v. NE, and I like what he brings.
We’ll probably see some trades within the next 5-6 days. All 3 positions require depth upgrades. Heard Johnson Jr. left practice injured today, which I hope [LIKE CRAZY] he’s able to return from.
porupack
August 23, 2023 at 07:00 am
Superb confessions, AL. You are forgiven all your football sins. Let your polluted mind have a clean bill of health today.
GregC
August 23, 2023 at 07:13 am
Thanks for the play-by-play analysis, that was helpful. The word that comes to mind with the offense this season is "harmony." There is no longer the feeling that the QB is working at cross purposes with the play caller and trying to force things that aren't there. It remains to be seen if the offense will look like this in regular season games, when defenses are throwing everything they have at it, but it sure is promising so far.
I think Samori Toure will be the #4 receiver at least to start the season, but he's got Malik Heath nipping at his heels for sure. I still haven't heard of Heath playing with the #1 offense in practice.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 09:02 am
I don’t see Heath as a direct substitute for Toure. Toure’s been the guy who runs every role. Heath and Wicks are the X/ big slot guys. We need both. Musgrave will do a lot of what the Goon might do otherwise (the Lazard role). If his blocking improves, the risk may be to Kraft actually if Musgrave can hold up as the true TE in a heavy set.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 10:10 am
CW, agreed that Heath (4.64) cannot replace Toure, (4.43) they have different roles. Interestingly, Wicks and [edit: Dubose] are nearly identical in size and are identical in 40 time, right with Davante Adams. I've never compared the two like this, might have to do a deeper dive. Do you see a substantial difference in their play style?
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 11:39 am
Doubs timed faster than Wicks, 4.47 as against 4.62. Doubs was thought to play faster than timed based on game timings (rather like Reed). Doubs was just coming back from injury.
Wicks is more comparable to Heath in 40 terms. Heath ran 4.64. Heath 6’2, 213, Wicks is 6’1, 205, so you could say Heath’s is better allowing for size. However, Wicks had an exceptional 10 yard split. He’s very physical but he wins with his cuts and burst. That has proved true. Wicks can separate. What wasn’t expected was how well Heath can. They are very very similar talents if Heath can actually regularly separate. To our surprise it seems he can.
Doubs is very different. He’s faster, but much more elusive. He’s got quick feet like Adams, not as quick, but he’s faster and still fluid.
His nearest comparative on the roster is Toure, who ran a 4.43 seconds at his pro day (so say 4.45). Doubs didn’t do agility tests at the combine as he was coming off an injury. Toure’s pro day three-cone drill time of 6.77 seconds would've been third among wideouts, and his 20-yard shuttle time of 4.22 seconds would've placed him fourth in the position group at the combine. I suspect Doubs might have bested the 3 cone but perhaps not shuttle.
Toure wins more by burst than twinkle toes but is exceptionally agile in a short are. The two are pretty close comparatives. Doubs was more polished. There really isn’t another in that mold. Melton is seriously fast, has terrific burst too but isn’t as agile/fleet footed. Reed is smaller, nearer to Melton but much better jumping and more agile I think.
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 11:53 am
PFF's Receiving Grade for Packers WR Samori Toure was #26 out of 207 WRs in his draft class last year. His Overall Grade was #29. His Drop Rate ranked #20 out of 117 WRs measured. Slot use was 79.8%. Wide use was 17.1%.
Toure caught 2 TDs in the East-West Shrine Bowl, and made a key block on a 3rd TD.
Toure had a 19.5 ypc (#7 in the nation amongst WRs with 40 receptions) average at Nebraska, the 2nd highest ypc average in school history. Toure also tied the Nebraska record with five 100-yd receiving games in a season in 2021.
Prior to transferring to Nebraska, Toure set the Montana school record for receiving yards in a season with 1,495, which ranked #1 in the Big Sky Conference, and #2 in the entire FCS.
Against Southeast Louisiana, Toure caught 12 passes for 303 yards, eclipsing the record previously held by Randy Moss, who had 288 in 1996.
NinersNation considered him "The Most Underrated WR in the Draft," in 2022.
Samori Toure is LEGIT. THIS IS HOW DEEP WE ARE.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 06:40 pm
CW, thank you for those comparisons, it definitely gives me things to look for.
Whether autocorrect zapped me or I just made a mistake with juggling all this, what I meant to ask (and have now edited my previous comment to reflect) was comparing Wicks to DuBose. My Google-fu shows them both with a 40 time of 4.57. You're working with different information on at least one of those and maybe you're right and I'm wrong. Wicks is 6'1 206, DuBose is 6'2 201. As far as these measurables go, these two are CLOSE! With Davante Adams at 4.56.
I don't see anything from either that tells me they have limited potential, which makes MLF's job hard.
And as much as I like Bo Melton I'll agree with you that Reed jumps better, and 'plays bigger.'
GregC
August 23, 2023 at 12:04 pm
If Heath really is the fourth best WR (which I'm not sold on yet, but it could happen), the coaches need to find a way to get him onto the field. He shouldn't have to do all of the things that Toure does. The coaches need to build the offense around the unique skill sets of each player, rather than just plugging players into holes.
Musgrave is a type of player that the Packers haven't had in a long time, and he's already found his niche in this offense. I think it's very different from Lazard's role. Musgrave lines up as a TE on almost every play--something I don't recall Lazard ever doing--and he is chipping pass rushers and doing the kind of blocking that TE's do, rather than blocking mostly on the perimeter as Lazard did.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 06:45 pm
Another difference between Lazard and Musgrave, not that this was capitalized on last year: AR12 could target him on the perimeter putting it where only Lazard could get it and if he didn't catch it there was 0 chance of an interception. Last year 12 just wasn't that accurate. Previous seasons he did that occasionally but the team never seemed to focus on that role.
Musgrave has not been used like that at all that I've seen. I don't suppose any opposing head coaches are getting better prepared for the possibility due to my comment, lol.
TKWorldWide
August 23, 2023 at 07:30 am
Great work Al. Great example of how first impression vs a deeper look can change what one takes away from watching the game.
I love how GB is going to be able to threaten downfield if the opposing D bunches up to stop 33 and 28. Watson can do it, but now GB has several others capable of going deep too, AND 88 will be able to threaten the deep MIDDLE.
GPG!
murf7777
August 23, 2023 at 09:14 am
Kinda like over reaction Monday morning:). What we see live isn’t always accurate and some of us fans over react. I like watching all 22 film or at least slo-mo on plays before making any opinions.
PeteK
August 23, 2023 at 09:31 am
That's what I will miss as my streaming service has no slow mo only 10 second increments.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 10:12 am
And deep isn't always needed! 10 yards moves the sticks, usually that's 'deep enough' and a high probability play.
TKWorldWide
August 24, 2023 at 06:50 am
Yes, for sure!
And, the threat of being able to go deep opens up those ten yard opportunities!
JL should be presented with a pretty nice “menu” this season. And beyond!
GPG!
PS one thing that drove me nuts in recent years was when a wide open crosser at 5 yards was ignored on third and 4 in favor of a deep heave that fell incomplete. Argh! Very much looking forward to that NOT happening any more.
Packers0808
August 23, 2023 at 07:37 am
Watson, Heath, Reed and look out for them. They are some ballers. Also E Wilson could be a big factor on this team. If he doesn't make team he won't last in PS, guy has real wheels and strength!
T7Steve
August 23, 2023 at 07:38 am
So long Hanson. It makes me feel a little better to think he can't make the team this season, yet he'll get healthy and will be starting for the Bears or Jets week one.
Can't wait to watch the game tonight (I hope). Now I know what to look for.
Between the three plays yesterday, and confessions today, I realize I don't know how to watch a football game anymore. I guess I've just been trying to enjoy them.
Packers0808
August 23, 2023 at 08:25 am
Doing the right thing enjoying them, especially with whole new outlook and one guy gone. It is already more enjoyable and only preseason!
LambeauPlain
August 23, 2023 at 08:36 am
The Packers O is going to surprise many. The RBs, and the OL, which I believe can be one of the best in the NFL, will gain yards and make manageable 3rd downs. The middle of the field is back on the menu and they have the tools to attack it with AJ, AJD, Musgrave, Watson, Doubs, Reed, and Heath.
What I would like to see is a breakdown of the defense's plays. There has been some excellent pressure. There have also been some gashes into the run D. That must be fixed this season or whatever excitement the O provides exceeding expectations will be a wet blanket on the W-L column.
(Hanson was waived. Maybe Tom is inching closer to C?)
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 10:18 am
LP,
agreed 1000%. I love the pressure, but failure to stop the run is a bad combination. That can really be exploited if our ILB and S both prove to be weaknesses.
On the other side of the ball, I'd love to see our known weakness at C & RG fixed. We have 4 good OTs in Bakh Nijman Mt Caleb and Walker, Tom should be at C. IMHO.
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 10:49 am
Well, it's apparent we've got RUN STOP up front. Haven't been able to say that with conviction in years.
Like the passing game with Love, I think the RUN STOP up front will be a similar work in progress through the first half of the season. Especially with 4-5 rookies up there in Ford, LVN, Brooks, Wooden, and Cox Jr.
ILB De'Vondre Campbell being out injured (and if reports are true that he had a walking boot and a wheel walker at his locker, that could spell a bigger injury than we might have previously considered), showed ILB depth possibly being a problem area with McDuffie being the #3 ILB. CIN and NE replays in slow mo review, McDuffie missed a lot of attack points... despite effort being there. Leaves me questioning his instincts some, despite his having made more plays this TC.
The Packers staff might see it as a problem too with their signing ILB Marvin Pierre two days ago. I do like some of the things I've seen from both ILB Eric Wilson and ILB Jimmy Phillips, but keep wanting for more from all of Wilson, Phillips and McDuffie.
Wouldn't surprise me to see Gutekunst work a trade or two before roster cuts on August 29th. That's coming in hot.
WestCoastPackerBacker
August 23, 2023 at 11:01 am
I have read they say Campbell is expected to be ready for the first game of the season.
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 11:03 am
Ooooooooo!!!! Cooooool!!! That would be fantastic. DC's an important part of this Packers D.
Thanks, WCPB!
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 06:49 pm
WCPB, that would be amazing :)
mnbadger
August 23, 2023 at 12:47 pm
GG - here are three positions I hope we're working on from a trade/FA signing standpoint:
1. safety
2. ILB
3. Center
We may have the answer currently, but I'd prefer if we try to upgrade if for no other reason than to increase competition.
NO SACRED COWS!
GPG!
LLCHESTY
August 23, 2023 at 05:29 pm
Don't jinx it!! Let's see them stop the run before saying they can. I definitely like what I've seen from Slaton and Ford so far but I've seen Wyatt get pushed around a bit and we'll have to see how Clark looks outside in base. Call me hopeful but cautious.
4thand10
August 23, 2023 at 03:34 pm
@Lambeau…I think the Run D will be improved. There wasn’t Clark, Campbell or Gary. And Belecheats secret weapon all these years is to catch a team in the wrong sub package and go to a hurry up quick slants and pound the rock to try to gas the D. Great coaches know it’s coming and plan, good coaches take a timeout and change personnel to be more versatile and then there is Barry….Hopefully it’s a life lesson for him before the season starts. This year we finally have enough DL to squelch a run game….how they play em is still up in the air
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 06:51 pm
4th, that sounds like "there's the right way, the wrong way, and then there's the army way."
Tundraboy
August 23, 2023 at 08:35 pm
Excellent point. I looked at this game as a test against belicek and as a measuring stick for our coaching, play calling and as more game experience for the new guys.
RCPackerFan
August 23, 2023 at 08:40 am
Drive 1:
"2nd and 5 - Play fake, half rollout right, immediate pressure, Love trys to dump it off to Deguara, who recovers after having slipped to the ground. Throw is high, Deguara takes a hit, a dangerous pass. As I wrote in yesterday's "Three Plays...," he should have just thrown it into the ground."
This is one of those teachable moments that he will have in his young career. He needs to learn that sometimes a good play is a non play. When things become a mess throwing the ball away sometimes is the best thing to do.
"3rd and 5 - This shall be known as "The snap."
As much talk as there has been surrounding snapping errors and Myers, i just have to go back to the history of Myers and the Packers. I don't recall many if any snapping errors with Myers in the past. So what is going on now with these snapping errors? The one conclusion I come up with is the combination of Love and Myers. They need to get on the same page. We have a couple of weeks left before week 1.
Drive 2:
"1st and 10 - Straight drop back, Love finds Musgrave who fakes as if he's blocking and then releases and sits in the hole in front of the dropping linebackers. Easy 10 yard gain. These are the simple yard-gainers that have been absent from the Packers' offense for years."
Musgrave will provide this ability. He can turn a simple checkdown or settling down in a zone and turn it into a 5-10+ yard gain.
"-1st and 10 - Shotgun handoff to Dillon with Musgrave coming down the line to block the back side DE. Musgrave does his job, but there's isn't much of a push from Myers and Runyan and the Patriots converge on Dillon, but he still manages to plow forward for 4 yards."
Dillon appears to be running harder/more differently this year. I like it!
Drive 3:
"2nd and 10 - Shotgun deep throw to Doubs, He was originally ruled out of bounds but LaFleur challenges and wins. Doubs has a full step on the DB, but the pass was slightly underthrown (which has been a theme all camp for Love and deep ball)s, but Doubs is a battler. He fights off the DB and flashes some Davante-like "late hands" to pull it in while somehow keeping both feet inbounds. A great catch."
This was a tremendous play by Doubs. First watching it live I didn't think he got his feet in but i did think it was close. Then replay clearly showed him getting both in. Great play.
"1st and 10 - Fake handoff, Love drops back, is looking deep downfield, doesn't see what he wants, takes off for 13 yards and gets late hit after a slide by a Patriots DL. Zach Tom and Runyan immediately come to his defense and get after the Patriot. Minor skirmish ensues."
This was a play that I felt the best about all night. Love takes the late hit, he gets up and talks a little trash and his OL come in and defend him. This to me was the moment that said Love is ready to take over.
"2nd and 5 - Love in shotgun, fake handoff to Dillon who is alert enough to fall on a blitzing DB, giving Love time to throw a beauty of a pass to Jayden Reed for a touchdown. Great play by all three of those players. However, there was also a unheralded assist from Christian Watson. His chip on the blitzing DB is the reason the DB went to the ground in the first place, allowing Dillon to just fall on him and keep him there."
This was a hell of a throw and a great play by Reed. As you pointed out huge assists from Watson and Dillon giving Love the time. Reed gives the offense something they haven't had in a long time. A true playmaking slot player who has the speed to burn. But he plays much bigger then a typical slot WR.
"Overall, Love wasn't perfect"
Something I think Packer fans need to accept is Love isn't and won't ever be perfect. Rodgers wasn't perfect. No QB is perfect. So we need to understand that perfection is not obtainable. But that being said something I have noticed is Love seems to settle in as the games go on. Sounds like practices have been similar. Once he settles in he makes some pretty damn good throws.
"Release the Kracken!"
Exactly what I think is going to happen. I'm expecting this entire offense to be unleashed in Chicago.
"Who's # 4?"
If Wicks wouldn't have gotten hurt I felt he was our number 4. But right now I do believe Heath will be the 4th. He has that goon mentality and he attacks the ball when its in the air.
I think they end up keeping 7 WR's on the 53. I think they have made it to hard on the team to not keep them.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 08:45 am
Toure is the number 4. He’s the guy they’ve moved everywhere all summer and has done very well consistently considering that a tough role. Another big play yesterday. Heath is fighting for 5. He may get it too. Injuries are such a big factor for player opportunities.
LambeauPlain
August 23, 2023 at 09:15 am
If Heath isn't the #4 now, he's going to be if he continues to stack success. Toure was mostly a non factor last year so he and Heath both started camp with clear slates. Toure has a few receiving few plays on his slate, but Heath's slate is filled up.
Toure returning kicks tells me the staff is seeing if he can add value to justify keeping him on the 53. But with DuBose and Watts getting dinged, Toure should be one of the 5 or 6 WRs on the 53 in Chicago.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 10:03 am
Different roles, different types and they are running Toure because this year we won’t have a pure specialist back up active for kicks or punts. Toure has had a good camp. As Herman put it, Toure’s done everything they’ve asked him well and been reliable if not spectacular, playing all roles. He had another big play in practice yesterday:
@ByRyanWood
“Jordan Love with great ball to Samori Toure down middle. With safety over top, Love threw behind Toure so as to not get his receiver’s head knocked off. Toure made sliding catch coming back to the ball for 24 yards. Talk about WRs earning the QB’s trust. That’s the inverse.“
Heath is a possession guy. He’s been very impressive, but he’s not going to do what Toure does, different skill sets and different athletes. Personally, I think Toure’s had the most difficult role there is to shine in, particularly for a non vet; moving around everywhere daily and on any given day, running all routes and catching from different guys all the time. That he’s apparently done that well makes him very valuable, not expendable and not fungible with Heath.
mnbadger
August 23, 2023 at 12:49 pm
LP - my quick take is that Toure is gone by next Wednesday either by cut or trade.
GPG!
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 01:24 pm
mb, I tend to disagree, and here's why: Samori Toure is going to be the backup in the slot to Reed. At least, that is the way it is looking at this point. That slot WR is important in LaFleur's system, especially in IOC concepts. Toure is too special to let go. What a player. Highly reliable. That is one of the characteristics found throughout our entire WR group at this point, 1-8. Hamstrings with Wicks & Melton? Are they already laying the groundwork for IR placement? Possible.
It's the smart play, as injuries do happen at WR throughout a 17 game schedule. Look what happened last year. Watson missed 3 games. Doubs missed 4...
Keeping this team loaded with quality targets will be key to our success in 2023. Especially with Love in his first season as QB1.
Looking at the roster overall, I'd say Gutekunst did a nice job of insuring we have quality depth at every position for 2023, save for C, ILB and S... those 3 positions you mentioned as possible trade targets.
You do have a good point in that WR is so rich in talent that the position might make for a trade of higher profile players. I gotta give you that there. Who knows?
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 01:28 pm
Followed by Love no doubt.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 06:54 pm
Toure might be leading the way in the WR room as far as conditioning? I'd love to see the whole room work out like Jerry Rice.
RCPackerFan
August 23, 2023 at 09:39 am
In the end it probably doesn't matter who is 4 or 5 or 6. Its just how much playing time they get and what they do with the playing time they get. I don't see Toure or Heath getting a ton of targets once the season starts. There is only one ball and can only be so many targets to go around.
We know Watson, Doubs, Reed are going to be the primary WR's with the most targets. We know that Jones and Dillon will be used in the passing game a quite a bit. And we know that Musgrave is going to be a primary target as well. These will be the primary play makers. Toure and Heath while maybe fighting for the 4th or 5th WR spots will get targets, they won't get as many as the guys mentioned above.
But a role that we can see Heath fitting into more is the goon role that Lazard filled really well. A blocking WR. Heath can provide that more then Toure. Which is why I think Heath will end up getting more playing time.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 10:21 am
I can see Heath (or Wicks/Dubose in theory) getting playing time in certain formations. That’s a great use for a 5th WR. However, Musgrave is clearly going to be first up in the Lazard role (among other things).
To get both out there if healthy, the opportunity would be if Musgrave not Kraft was the heavy set TE so Heath could be Lazard, or maybe with Kraft to rest Musgrave. Heath could be an attractive option to help close out games too. That’s your 5 active receivers plus Musgrave, if all stay healthy. Any others that are on the roster are likely inactive this year as none are ST mainstays.
dobber
August 23, 2023 at 10:27 am
"I don't see Toure or Heath getting a ton of targets once the season starts. There is only one ball and can only be so many targets to go around."
It's not so much that they'll be regulars in the rotation, but that there will be injuries in-game--turned ankles, hammies, concussions--over the course of the season to the top of the depth chart pass catchers, and these guys showing well in preseason helps us to feel that the offense won't be severely limited when it happens.
RCPackerFan
August 23, 2023 at 11:12 am
But also when injuries happen sometimes they just change what they are doing. They may look to more 2 TE or 2 RB sets.
But yes. They have options for guys that can step in and be the next guy in line.
I am curious to see how many guys they end up keeping. I'm thinking they keep 7. But wouldn't be surprised if its not either.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 10:29 am
RCP, another way to look at Heath is his 40 speed is similar to Musgrave; .02 slower actually. Think of him as a mini TE and his role emerges pretty clearly.
Even without him you've identified 6 very capable offensive weapons, each of whom are VERY different. That's a lot for any defense to try to account for, and our QB can also run for a first down if need be.
This team is taking shape and I like what's emerging!
RCPackerFan
August 23, 2023 at 11:23 am
Yeah and I'm not concerned with Heaths speed at all. He plays faster then his time and he has a knack for how to attack the ball. I can see him filling a role similar Lazard's old role, with his ability to block.
Definitely looking forward to seeing how this roster turns out. It is taking shape.
stockholder
August 23, 2023 at 09:58 am
Toure is the 3rd Wr.
1. Most improved
2. Love Trust him
3. Route improvement
jannesbjornson
August 23, 2023 at 10:29 am
Looks like Reed is the third option. Toure will have to take on Heath for snaps. The Greenhorns will fight it out for the #6 spot.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 10:38 am
This is mostly determined by who goes in when we use 3 WRs. It will be interesting to see how MLF uses this room, and IOC. We can also run plays with 5 targets and only 3 WRs.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 12:41 pm
Reed is going to be the default slot. What we won’t see in preseason is how often they want to move Watson or Doubs there and in what context. If that happens it seems to be typically Toure stepping into whichever role in practices if it’s not Musgrave as the X, however there are hopefully plenty of installations we haven’t seen.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 06:58 pm
CW,
exactly! And many are writing as if MLF shows his whole hand in Chicago. I hope he does not. How much of the play book does he really need to reveal to beat da Bares?
dobber
August 23, 2023 at 10:23 am
" I don't recall many if any snapping errors with Myers in the past. So what is going on now with these snapping errors? "
I think it was Sunday when Pete Dougherty for JSOnline wrote that the Myers snap thing has been blown out of proportion, and that the actual number of mishandled exchanges with him have been small. Ryan Wood of the Press Gazette commented on the same thing this morning.
jannesbjornson
August 23, 2023 at 10:31 am
But hysterical reactions sell better...
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 01:42 pm
He’s done it with all the QBs. Myers has visibly been in trouble with Rodgers a few times for mental lapses on snaps before. Short memories abound. That seems to be the issue now, not technique. Those mental lapses shouldn’t be happening except on a near blue moon by year 3.
Bad snaps by Empey and Schneider are to be expected and eradicated, but they are learning from depth. That many botched snaps over a season would typically lose a C his job.
Yes, camp is time to iron out winkles but not at this point. It’s interesting that the pundits most pro Tom not being at C excuse the unforgivable so blithely. I’m with Herman on this one: “it can’t happen.”
That’s allowing for no one knowing whose fault him hitting Musgrave was yesterday (though I did see attempts to blame Musgrave among sources you mention). My beef with Myers is he’s not been as good as previously and he’s never been above replacement grade then. The snapping is a minor red flag.
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 02:08 pm
Myers wasn't a love match with Aaron Rodgers from snap 1, which in their first in practice together in August of 2021 was a botched snap. They had trouble multiple times together in Myers' rookie year prior to his injury.
Sophomore slump? YOU BET! Myers had a grossly inconsistent 2022. Of our 5 preferred starters Myers had the lowest PFF score of 60.4 last season. According to Andy Herman, Myers' grade was the 2nd lowest graded offensive player with a -4.15, behind only Royce Newman. Myers also had the highest number of negatively graded games with 12 (all per Wendell Ferreira).
None of this is lost on LaFleur & Co. I'll bet Tom has gotten those #1C reps in closed practices. Packers aren't done adding depth to the position. Maybe that's why Love didn't seem too concerned about it, and the media is saying this is overblown by fans, because behind closed doors it's already fixed...?
WOULDN'T THAT BE COOL??? LOLOLOLOLOLOL...
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 07:03 pm
GG,
yes I'd love to see that! Especially since it would mean MLF is being crafty. I want to see some 'go for the jugular' from that man, everything else I'm good with.
OT with Bakh Nijman Mt Caleb and Walker? Why do we need Tom at T and not C?
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 07:42 pm
Bak/Elgton/Tom/Runyan/Yosh - IMO, that seems to be our best OL.
Walker, Delancy, Myers, Rhyan and Jones makes for a better #2 OL than most teams in the NFL, but Telfort as a LT prospect may wind up more valuable and worth protecting. More than Delancy? Myers?
Maybe they trade Myers for a late pick? There’s always a staff who thinks they can coach a player better.
I looked around a bit today, and there’s a lot of OL attrition already, with one more preseason game left to play. Bills lost backup LT Tommy Doyle for the year, another OT to injured/retired and an OG to IR all in one week.
We need to be smart about protecting our assets in Green Bay, because Gutekunst is good. Teams know this.
Btw, right with you on LaFleur raising his game to a new level. I want to see him being a smart, unwavering, badass MF of a tactician and HC this season.
dobber
August 23, 2023 at 02:56 pm
" Short memories abound. "
Both writers cite the same two instances of missed snaps between Love and Myers in 2023 camp/preseason.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 03:21 pm
Neither of which relate to Myers pre 2023 snap issues.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 11:08 am
RCP,
"As much talk as there has been surrounding snapping errors and Myers, i just have to go back to the history of Myers and the Packers."
This is the least of the concerns with Myers at C. The biggest is what you quoted from the OP, that there wasn't much run block from our starting C and RG. This was true last season and is nothing new. Pressure on Dillon to perform starts here! If all our runs need to go around our right edge or behind Jenkins and Bakh, that's much easier to defend.
Also, sometimes Myers gets beat; that doesn't happen that often and is less of a concern than run blocking, and also more of a concern than bumbling snaps. Still, the exchange between C and QB is not supposed to be a risky endeavor.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 08:41 am
I’m inclined to believe Doubs’ take on that catch when he says that if it had been any further ahead, he wouldn’t have been able to stay in bounds. Watching it, I agree. Doubs cited the throw as perfect. That could be just sticking up for his QB, but I think he’s right. An easier but incomplete catch isn’t a better result. Love put it where it had to be and where the defender was unable to do more than break it up at worst.
T7Steve
August 23, 2023 at 09:07 am
I read where John Kunn called out Douds for the rout he ran. Took it too close to the sideline initially. He did make a great adjustment just to come down with it.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 11:12 am
I've seen many routes run like this and agree with John Kuhn's take. It makes me wonder how MLF is drawing up these plays; another 2 yards inside gives immensely more margin for error.
mnbadger
August 23, 2023 at 12:54 pm
The DB is also aware of this and is constantly muscling the receiver toward the OofB stripe. It's like having an extra defender.
Young WR's need to build up strength and technique before they can simply maintain a two or three yard window to the sideline.
GPG!
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
August 23, 2023 at 02:55 pm
But Doubs had the guy beat. All he had to do was stack the db and it wouldve been an easy catch. Probly keeps running too.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 07:05 pm
I'm looking to see our WRs have their coverage beat a LOT!
packerfanroy
August 23, 2023 at 09:17 pm
its not MLF drawing up the play wrong....Doubs ran the route the wrong way. Great recovery and catch by Doubs but he ran a bad route...
Bearmeat
August 23, 2023 at 09:16 am
Al saying "it may not be great but it won't be terrible." Well, yeah. It may not be great. But it WILL be better than the schlock and drama we say last year. This is a straight up better team, top to bottom, than the one we trotted out there last year. And yes, I am including the QB. Rodgers was balls last year. He didn't want to be here, he was hurt, he pouted, he blame shifted. Good riddance.
After seeing what we have this training camp, I am convinced Love will be GOOD this year. Not GREAT necessarily, but good. And I do think (although don't know yet) that he will start to be GREAT in year 2.
I think we're going to win the division.
PeteK
August 23, 2023 at 09:53 am
-While it needs some improvement on accuracy and reads, I'm glad they are using the roll outs. This will be an important part of the offense as an athletic QB like love can put extreme pressure on the D. Right now it's the same WR/TE routes, but that will change as the season progresses.
- There have been preseasons where some rooks and second year players shined, but I don't remember a pre with this many outstanding players (Heath, Wilson, Enagbare, Wooden, Brooks, Valentine, Reed, Clifford. I'll even give Van Ness some comps as he is holding up against the run very well.
- Finally , saw Tom pull from his RT position for an interior block and pancaked a defender. His mobility should be fun to watch.
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 10:18 am
There's a lot to be excited about, Bearmeat. That's for sure. I think the script flips for Jordan Love by mid-season. By then, both he and his receivers should all be in a decent comfort zone with the offensive scheme, and they could go on a nice tear through the schedule.
Whatever good that happens through the first half of this season will be pure gravy. Seems all 3 phases of this Packers team could prove by then to be vastly improved with the amount of talent added these last 2-3 off-seasons.
Add in the schedule, and winning the division is a definite possibility projecting forward with what we've learned. A lot left to play out. Our starting Safeties and OL have been my biggest concerns for 2023, besides LaFleur and his staff's improvement.
Hearing that S Tarvarius Moore's injury was considered by LaFleur to be "day to day," is encouraging as well. Would love to see both Moore and Johnson Jr. win the starting S positions, and I've heard the Packers FO is pretty high on Moore. S Anthony Johnson Jr, selected with Pick #242, was PFF's #90 player Overall from April's NFL Draft.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 10:34 am
AJJ has had exactly the type of camp I expected for a guy with little experience but som talent. A quiet start then done really good plays and some pretty big errors. I see talent, I don’t see readiness. We just don’t play guys like that. If he’s able to earn a spot in STs, then he maybe is our last S, if not he’s going to the PS. Next year may be wholly different if he can learn.
I’m still not ruling out us picking up a veteran at S, TE and C. That’s been something Gute has done before. I’m not ruling out Allen, who Bissacia likes on STs blocking teams too, but I want to see him play a lot on S. I’m hoping Moore is back. He’s been my pick of the safeties in a not stellar battle. Owens is, like Ford, seemingly good at some things and not others. We may find better. At C, unless we really like Empey, I can’t think we stand pat. Tom/Jenkins/Runyon aren’t going to be regular Cs running the second line in any optimal practice
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 12:14 pm
I disagree with you entirely on S Anthony Johnson Jr. That's fine. We can agree to disagree. I happen to think he will get a starter's nod, and he'll learn on the field as a starter. He's a gamer, and a baller. At the very least, he makes the Packers 53 man roster.
PFF's #90 Overall Player from the 2023 draft can't make a Packers team in need of Safety help?
There might be no better learning place for AJJ than with the amount of pass rush the Packers D brings in front of him. He could very well be our best set of instincts + run stop next to Tarvarius Moore. Both have plus ball skills as well.
I'm pretty sure Allen got the 2nd most ST reps Saturday with 8? If memory serves... I like TE Austin Allen a lot myself, and want him to make this Packers team.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 12:50 pm
I don’t think we disagree on AJJs upside. I think we do on his readiness to be relied upon if needed. He’s improved through camp assuredly, but I think he needs more time still.
Allen needs a chance, or perhaps the best way to look at it is that the team needs him thoroughly tested in game conditions . I like his upside, but it’s time to see his present with pads on and full contact. It’s up to the team to ensure that. If he holds up then we are good. If not we need to find help. Not testing in game that is pointless in our current situation.
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 01:15 pm
S Anthony Johnson's 3,159 defensive snaps played are the fifth-most of any Power Five defensive back since 2018
I think he's more ready than many of us could have known. He's got a wealth of experience entering this NFL, at both CB and S, which is that multi positional trait LaFleur & Barry look for in their defenders.
I don't disagree he needs more time, but, given our lack of quality depth at S, I'd say, roll with the kid!!! Why not? We're doing that nearly everywhere else. Throw him into the fire.
That's where I'm coming from, Coldworld.
I agree with you completely on Allen. My earlier comments about letting him go through the waiver process were more about his higher likelihood of surviving that to be signed to the PS over one of our WRs.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 03:25 pm
How many of those snaps were at true safety? He’s new to the position and making a big level jump and it’s showed. S is a hard position for any rookie to come in and shine.
greengold
August 23, 2023 at 03:38 pm
Johnson Jr. had more than 600 snaps at Safety exclusively as a 5th year Senior in 2022. More than 1300 snaps at CB combined his two years previous, with another 130 snaps at box Safety 2021 & 2020.
I like everything about him, especially hearing "You can't teach effort."
AJJ had a 74.9 Coverage Grade last year at S, and a 68.1 Run Defense Grade. 10.3% Forced Incompletion Rate. Allowed just 2 TDs with 2 INT. He's got experience playing outside, in the slot, in the box and as the deep Safety. Communication is a big part of his game, which is a plus. He's been used as a Single-High Safety, and in Cover 2. In Cover 3 he was used in the middle and on the outside.
Johnson Jr.s 42.5 pass rating allowed from the slot is one of the best marks in the 2023 Safety class. No fear matching up with slot WRs nor TEs. Didn't allow a single reception of 30 yds or more all season. He's known to offer high character and consistency.
Incredibly aggressive in run support.
Reliable in deep halves and quarters (which we play a ton of).
Effective in slot using skills as a former CB.
Comfortable in both press & zone coverages.
AJJ also played more than 400 ST snaps in his Iowa St. career. Bright kid too, being an Academic All-American... His 4 years of CB experience gives him a HIGH UNDERSTANDING of where his help is coming from at Safety - which is huge in covering slot WRs and TEs. He's highly intelligent. AJJ has ZERO HESITATION in the run stop. Sheer aggressiveness & competitiveness, which is right in line with the way Carrington Valentine was profiled.
Most of his work came against high powered Big 12 offenses. His career Coverage Grade is 90.0.
7.6. Grade Potential Starter/Good Backup
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 07:16 pm
GG,
at practices what stood out to me about AJJ the most is he was so obviously HUNGRY! The mental toughness to maintain that all season long only happens one way ...
If we keep 5 at S I think it'll be at least solid this season, and good to great next. (Assuming coaches don't botch it, of course)
LLCHESTY
August 23, 2023 at 05:39 pm
Agree he's made some mistakes the last couple weeks. I think only the coaches can know if he's shown enough promise that they can live with the mistakes while he learns on the job. From what I've seen it's more body positioning than coverage errors. I think he could be the best guy in deep coverage so even if he's not starting he might see snaps in 3rd and long situations.
dobber
August 23, 2023 at 10:55 am
"Al saying "it may not be great but it won't be terrible.""
Sounds like a paraphrasing of my wedding vows...
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 07:35 pm
Dobber, that also pertains to many welds, lol
WestCoastPackerBacker
August 23, 2023 at 11:12 am
I think it's worth waiting to see how this year shakes out. Give me some examples of Rodgers pouting? I didn't see that. He took an inexperienced and oft-injured WR corps and made plays, even with a broken thumb. He wasn't the Rodgers of MVP years, but hey, his #1 WR was undrafted Allan Lazard. No TE to speak of. Tonyan couldn't run last year. Rodgers actually worked with the rookies Doubs and Watson so that (other than being injured - both of them), they had pretty productive rookie seasons. Rodgers wasn't himself last year, but the team around him sucked pretty bad. The offensive line dealt with injuries and poor play. They wait until he's 38 to draft any WR talent to replace/complement Adams? They wait until he is gone and then draft TE talent? Yes, if the team is better this year, it is because they finally put some resources into the offense. And maybe the defense plays up to its billing. Having a good defense would have really helped last year's outcome.
bottlefliper
August 23, 2023 at 12:41 pm
Did you watch the flatearther play the last ten years? complaining about everyone but himself. Lost all big games eeven he had better weapons than most top 10 QBs. He missed so many open receivers, just throwing to his buddies. Later he had just one friend left and forces every ball to him.
You could let watch your kids. The body language, the rolling eyse, the stare. Throwing everyone under the bus, the FO, teammates (he hates rookies), planes, science. What a Diva. Just crazy guys think they are smarter than everybody else and than asking his crazy friend like Rogan for advice. And all the lying, the drama. Cmon, he was the anti-Lombardi.
But you talking like him, its always the others......just when we winning its bcause of him. He wasted the Packers Prime and like I said, he had better WR corps, Ds and lines than most but always find a way to mess it up. If we would have picked WR in the first round the last 10 years, he would have not used tem anyway. You know, trust issues. He needs 15 years to trust somebody.
But AR worked with the rookies was a good one. What strange narritives. He did not work a whole lot anyway.
Now we have the joy in football back and it can be worse than with AR. Even MM has twice as much and with some luck, Love will have way more to show for, before all is said and done. More SBs, more friends on and off the field, thas for sure
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
August 23, 2023 at 02:58 pm
You lost me when you turned this into a half baked political rant.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 11:16 am
Bearmeat,
I think we have no idea what JL10 at his best will be. He'll certainly continue to improve and probably not start to peak or plateau until well into his third season as starter, 2025. Bring home a Lombardi that year, continue to improve from there, and redeem our past three decades, lol. That would be pretty 'special!'
4thand10
August 23, 2023 at 02:24 pm
They look like they’re on the right track Bearmeat. But honestly, just the attitude and energy of the team seams different in a good way. Even if they don’t do as well as my expectations, I’m just excited to see the young team grow and develop. But I’m optimistic, I think the team has more speed.
murf7777
August 23, 2023 at 09:32 am
The TD throw to Reed was a special type of throw. Love showed his arm strength and accuracy. His physical abilities are what make him a 1st round draft pick. The thing about Love is he has all the physical tools, strong arm to make any play and can run the ball as needed. The mental aspect will be the final determination on how well he succeeds or fails in the NFL. I don’t believe we’ve seen nearly enough to pass judgement.
I also think we might see more mistakes in the first half vs the 2nd half of the year for two reasons. 1. Love needs to learn from his mistakes. He has to learn to throw the ball away and not into risky situations, especially those plays that don’t have much to gain from, like the play to TE. Yes, he has had plenty of camp experience to learn from mistakes, but it is different when you have multiple DC planning for you with all live tackling and different schemes vs the same defense and players day in and day out. 2. Love needs to develop confidence and connection with the rookies and even 2nd year players.
Fingers crossed he will develop the mental part of his game to equal his physical abilities.
Coldworld
August 23, 2023 at 10:40 am
One QBs unwise throw is another showing his genius. What’s the difference? Leaving aside the irrational, its repetition. All those throws Rodgers made into tiny windows were great because we knew he could consistently win most (but not all).
We don’t have that track record with Love since he’s got no record at all really--a lot if the hand wringing is just lack of that confidence. If Love keeps doing it, that will shift from doubt to praise.
SicSemperTyrannis
August 23, 2023 at 11:23 am
murf,
I'm with you, I would rather see JL10 prioritize high probability plays early in the season, rather than going air raid with risky throws before the O line establishes dominant protection. We're used to seeing AR12 threading needles, and Love shouldn't be trying that. Watson will certainly get OPEN sometimes, as will other targets.
It'll be interesting to see what strategy MLF uses early. Especially in Chicago! One completion beyond 10 yards is all it takes to make the opposing defense spread itself out trying to defend against the pass, opening up our run game.
jannesbjornson
August 23, 2023 at 06:38 pm
His footwork and delivery will be something he will work on, just like Rodgers,, mastering the kata. He had the deep out in college, which cannot be taught. The game slowing down and his reads will come as he is presented with more challenging looks. See how he responds. The key is improvement.
croatpackfan
August 23, 2023 at 10:06 am
What to say, Al?
I just thought this thought - you obviously got very good vacation and regenerated your "batteries" 120%.
This week 2 excellent pieces, that let us little to add, except to agree with you.
What is interesting lately is that all the Packers critics in the main football media (baring few from ESPN) change the Love is bust to at least he might be better than good.
That tells me Jordan surprised all of them. But, as always, Jordan Love can play at HOF level, if he will not have support of his team mates, he will not be able to achieve anything.
My hopes are that Packers, as unit will be very good this year.
Go Pack Go!
White92
August 23, 2023 at 11:37 am
Great recap Al, thanks for your hard work. They are going to have to be a grind it out offense. It will be important to minimize turnovers, which we can be pretty sure will be higher than they have been. That will be the biggest issue IMHO. Let's hope the kicker has things figured out do points aren't left off the board when the drives stall.
BAMABADGER
August 23, 2023 at 01:16 pm
Jet WR Randall Cobb speaking to the WR group on Hard Knocks… he summarizes the Packers QB issues for the previous 5+ years: “I was just talkin to an (upset) 12 er 8…. If he don’t trust you, he ain’t throwing you the ball.”
I Love the positive direction GB is heading!
GPG!
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
August 23, 2023 at 03:04 pm
#NotOurProblem
packerfanroy
August 23, 2023 at 09:59 pm
No, it doesnt. It just shows how tilted you are when it comes to AR that you cant even think straight... Do you really want JLove to tell his guys that if they consistently run the wrong route or run the route badly its fine??? Arod is just letting guys know that if they arent doing it right in practice when it doesnt count dont expect him to look their way in a real game when it does. Leaders set standards and hold people accountable...
The_Baloney_Stops_Here
August 23, 2023 at 03:03 pm
Id like to see them scrap the "snap it for a free play" nonsense. I dont care how many times Rodgers turned it into a big play. This type of trick requires the refs to see what you see and when they dont you end up with an interception like the 2014 NFC Championship Game or the turnover vs the Patriots. Please eliminate the gimmicks. Only snap it when the qb says to snap it.
Qoojo
August 23, 2023 at 06:25 pm
Love the title puns
Tundraboy
August 23, 2023 at 07:36 pm
Very fine installment this week Al. My fav:
"These are the simple yard-gainers that have been absent from the Packers' offense for years.".
Looking forward to a lot of that and the Kraken.
packerfanroy
August 23, 2023 at 08:33 pm
Doubs made a great catch, with great foot placement but that was a badly run route by Doubs. Hopefully the growing pains that come with inexperienced QB's and WR's dont hurt us too much this year.
SinceLombardi
August 24, 2023 at 11:16 am
I think Carlson will be fine. I’m sure he’s going to have some growing pains, … in the meantime it will be nice to see a kicker that has enough leg to put kickoffs out of the end zone.
No KO returns = less injuries and less good field position.