Bucs 34 Packers 20: Game Balls & Lame Calls
Defense hits rock bottom.
By KenLass
What’s it going to take? What will it take for the Green Bay Packers to address the management of their defense? Never has the difference in quality of coaching been so evident as it was in the 34 to 20 loss to Tampa Bay. The Bucs brought a mediocre offense into Lambeau Field and Joe Barry’s defense made them look like the Greatest Show On Turf.
Baker Mayfield and his unit ran up ridiculous stats. By halftime Chris Godwin had 108 receiving yards. Mayfield put up a passer rating of 142.6. He finished with 381 yards and four touchdowns. Green Bay’s defensive coaches had no answers, no adjustments, no hope of stopping them. The problem was particularly acute on third downs. Time after time Barry stayed with a four man rush and dropped seven. Seven players who ran around in the secondary as though they were in an elementary school fire drill. Accomplished receivers like Godwin and Mike Evans ran through them like water through a sieve.
Here’s a bit of perspective on how bad this defense has become. Remember Tommy De Vito? The undrafted rookie quarterback of the New York Giants whom the Packers couldn’t sack last week? The guy who led his team to 24 points, including a 57 yard drive and a game winning field goal in the closing seconds? Yesterday the Saints sacked De Vito seven times and held him to six total points.
Meanwhile at Lambeau In the second half Tampa Bay scored a touchdown every time they had the ball, except for the kneel downs at the bitter end. Playing desperate catch-up the entire final two quarters, Jordan Love was simply not good enough to keep up. He padded his passing stats late after the Bucs dropped back into prevent, but the inconsistent Packer offense was never a threat to pull it out.
With the defense regressing more every game, it’s hard to picture the Packers beating any of their remaining opponents. They have fallen out of the playoff picture and into the abyss of mediocrity that is the rest of the NFC. And until the coaching gets better, or gets changed, there will be no climbing out.
GAME BALLS
Dontayvion Wicks
He led the team by catching six of seven targets for 97 yards, but I was most impressed by his effort to struggle for extra yardage after the catch. And this while nursing an ankle injury. He could be seen wincing in pain after getting up from every catch. He showed the talent, the desire and the leadership to be a number one receiver.
Jayden Reed
Six catches for 52 yards, and the play of the game. In the furious fourth quarter Jordan Love scrambled out of trouble to his right and laid a pass right on the side boundary of the end zone. Reed made a spectacular catch, tapping both feet in bounds an instant before falling over the chalk. Reed was also playing hurt, with a bad shoulder that ultimately forced him out of the game for the final drive.
Kenny Clark
Perhaps the lone shining star on this side of the ball. Four tackles, two sacks, two tackles for loss. The defensive line as a unit put on a gallant effort and got home a few times, but with the keystone cops performance going on behind them, they had no chance, and Barry would not help them with extra rushers.
LAME CALLS
Defensive Coaching
When the Tampa Bay defense faced a critical third down, they brought all manner of extra pressure, forcing Love into hurried throws that were often inaccurate. On Green Bay’s final drive, 4th and 10 on the Bucs’ 30, Tampa brought the house, sending Love into a futile back pedal and fumble, extinguishing any dream of a comeback. By contrast, nearly every time Green Bay’s defense was trying to hold on third down, they rushed just the normal four, allowing Mayfield all the time he needed to pick a disorganized zone defense apart. When it became obvious the back end couldn’t cover, why not blitz more? What was there to lose?
Offensive Coaching
On the Packers’ first drive, Matt LaFleur decided to go for it on 4th and 2 from the four yard line. It was early and he was trailing 3-0 and probably should have taken the easy field goal to tie it up. Of course, he couldn’t know Love would throw a terrible pass and completely miss an open Jayden Reed in the end zone. Kingsley Enagbare atoned for the failure by recovering his own strip sack fumble of Mayfield on the same four yard line, the defensive play of the game.
LaFleur’s decision to challenge a spot in the final quarter was foolish. He let Aaron Jones and the home crowd sway him into wasting a timeout, when replays clearly showed Jones was short of the first down. It was less than a yard to go anyway, and the Packers would have had two tries to pick it up. Another example of coaching malfunction.
Disappearance of the Deep Ball
Yes, I know it is frustrating to watch Love under throw long passes all day, but now the deep ball seems to have completely disappeared from the game plan. Maybe the absence of Christian Watson accounts for it, or maybe Love just didn’t have enough time, but I’d like to see at least a couple of shots deep. Let Doubs and Reed and Wicks compete for a home run ball. Defenses are sitting on the short throws and it’s impairing Green Bay’s ability to sustain drives.
THREE AND OUT
-- The ultimate act of disrespect for Green Bay’s beleagured defense came on Tampa Bay’s final drive. With 4th and 2 on the Packers 41 yard line, with a 14 point lead and under two minutes to play, the Bucs would normally just punt and drop back and let their defense close out the contest. Instead they lined up to go for it and just muscled the Green Bay defense for four yards and an easy first down to ice the game.
-- Tight end Tucker Kraft had another good game, but I’m sure coaches would rather he not try to leap defenders while running after the catch. When he tried it in the second quarter he took a shot right in the man berries from the defender. I felt it in my living room. Kraft limped through it and perhaps learned a lesson the hard way.
-- Will the Packers win another game? The Panthers, Vikings and Bears all have defenses that are playing very well right now. Green Bay’s error-prone offense will have trouble putting points on the board against them. And with a defense that can’t stop anybody, it’s quite possible the Pack could very well end the season on a five game losing streak. Wonder if that would put LaFleur in danger.
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Ken Lass is a former Green Bay television sports anchor and 43 year media veteran, a lifelong Packers fan, and a shareholder.
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Comments (210)
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 07:13 am
"And with a defense that can’t stop anybody, it’s quite possible the Pack could very well end the season on a five game losing streak. Wonder if that would put LaFleur in danger."
My, my, my how the thoughts have changed in two weeks. After beating Detroit and KC handily, most thought that we may win out.
We need to remember that we have a young team and piss poor coaching!
SinceLombardi
December 18, 2023 at 08:53 am
Brian Gutekunst gave MLF his vote of confidence via his Twitter (X) account after the debacle.
All the fuss over Joe Barry is glossing over the fact that we score on average one more point than the lowly Commanders.
This is not winning football on either side of the ball. Injuries, youth are not excuses for other teams.
Youth doesn’t bother CJ Stroud, injures don’t stop the Colts and their rookie HC.
Let’s be honest.. Watson is always injured, Alexander can’t cover anyone wearing a purple jersey anyway. And Bahktiari doesn’t want to be here.
Does it take finishing 4th in the central? Going 8-9 in 2024?
When exactly has MLF done enough to lose his job?
Remember he stuck by Mo Drayton when it was painfully obvious in October that he had to go. That cost a trip to the super bowl. The support MLF gets is bewildering. Ron Wolf would have canned him at the end of 2022.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 09:43 am
Key Word: Gutedkunst. The fraternity of failures in the 1265 Clubhouse. They all had a group Hug after Contract Extensions, thanks to Rodgers. Now we get part two of the "Lindy years."
Bitternotsour
December 18, 2023 at 09:57 am
Gutekunst. LaFleur doesn't work for Gutekunst. Gutekunst's vote of confidence is a vote for his club.
How much time does it take to process that. Gutekunst isn't MLF's boss. He didn't hire him, he can't fire him.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 10:23 am
Bla Bla Bla...
Bitternotsour
December 18, 2023 at 04:21 pm
happy holidays
bullsa21
December 18, 2023 at 05:22 pm
remember Brian Gutekunst did not hire MLF. It was Mark Murphy! His ego got in the way of this. But I agree it is time to clean house at least on the defense side of things. Oh by the way when the defense woke up I believe it was last year it was when they let Jerry Gray set his DB's free to be more aggressive, That our defense got better but his frustration led him to leave. He should have been promoted to the DC and fire Joe Barry.
Packerpasty
December 18, 2023 at 05:40 pm
How can anyone POSSIBLY forget that the Packers have a young team since its brought up in every post all year long??
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 07:15 am
Regarding your comments on the deep ball, do we miss Watson that much that we can't throw a deep ball because we have no one else that is fast enough?
I believe there was one or two that played Sunday that have the speed to make it work or at least open things up. If not, we need to draft another speedster as it appears that, based on a short history, Watson will only be availabe for about half the games.
Cheezehead72
December 18, 2023 at 07:18 am
And in the games Watson is available half of those are not complete games.
TKWorldWide
December 18, 2023 at 07:27 am
Reed and Melton have the requisite speed.
Coldworld
December 18, 2023 at 08:27 am
It’s a shame we never tried Melton deep. He’s genuinely fast and, while not tall, he’s got a 38 inch vertical. LaFleur is so cautious with guys they didn’t have in their vote plan. What’s to lose from an MVS style shot or two? Though with IOL play as it was yesterday, maybe nobody would have been fast enough to get deep before the OL gave out.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 10:22 am
All he did at Rutgers was run go routes for TDs. He looked like Randall Cobb on his one reception with quick feet. He can be a catch and go route runner. Naturally, he is held to the back of the line because he's not a stock car derby WR blocking down. Looks like he moved Toure to the inactive list.
LLCHESTY
December 18, 2023 at 01:58 pm
"All he did at Rutgers was run go routes for TDs."
Not true at all. Averaged 11 yards a catch his last year at Rutgers. That does not a go route runner make. Also got plenty of handoffs on sweeps and Jets.
Tundraboy
December 18, 2023 at 10:31 am
MLF is smug, it can't be that he is oblivious or so stupid and doesn't realize not only Barry's job is on the line, but his as well. Under most circumstances, coaches will use players if it means saving their jobs, but he doesn't think anything is wrong out there on the field, while it's actually happening. With so many injuries his lineups are always headscratching. Why not give Melton a few more plays yesterday, if your not giving Jones snaps, where's the RBs yesterday! All just names being dangled forever and then let go. Pointless.
But I decided I'm going to be positive and not get swallowed up by all that is wrong now. I see two huge pluses from yesterday. Kraft showing that he's for real ,meaning that now along with Musgrave and the wide receivers, that we have the talent right there on this team! And that corner end zone pass play by Love was star quality!
That alone brings a smile to my face today, despite all the other nonsense. Just have to wait and hope for the coaching overhaul that is the elephant in the room until it's not.
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 07:40 am
We need to draft another deep threat.
Honestly even if its a guy like MVS it would be ok.
We need that deep threat though. Wicks can be a deep threat, but he is currently injured. Reed can be but he is injured. Doubs really is not a deep threat.
Of course when Musgrave is good he is also another deep threat. But I'd love to see them add another guy with top end speed that can take the top off the defense.
Cheezehead72
December 18, 2023 at 07:45 am
I can run a 44 40
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 07:55 am
Hired!
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 08:01 am
can you run the ball between tackles? How is your tackling ability? We could use a player go both ways.
BAMABADGER
December 18, 2023 at 08:02 am
None of our WR are serious deep threats without Watson. You are correct one of the major of many needs is a fast big receiver in the first round. Think LSU! So many holes to fill, best available in the first round at WR, OL, IDL. Guys that are not developmental. Enough of that philosophy in the first round.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 10:07 am
Third round.
stockholder
December 18, 2023 at 10:17 am
Tall and big. - No more small guys.
6'5". Johnny Wilson fits rd.3
Coldworld
December 18, 2023 at 11:59 am
At 6’6” and purportedly running a 4.4 40 hes already being talked about as a 2nd rounder despite being a very long strider. He’s nowhere near as sudden as Watson, for example, he needs time to get going. He’s not going to win by burst or agility.
He’s basically a bigger MVS but not quite as fast and has a similar body catching issue. However, he could still not make it to the 3rd just because of his measurables.
stockholder
December 18, 2023 at 12:18 pm
Correct - But Lazard and MVS still got paid.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 03:15 pm
Those were foolish moves by Veach and Joe Douglas caving to a semi-smart QB's recommendation. The WR lineup is strong for draft day, 2024. The Game of Football is all about Passing & Receiving from Pop Warner to the Pros.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 03:09 pm
If Odunze is on the board, take him in round One and move into the middle of this round for the LT. Xavier Legette is another target, round One. Big Ten ILBs play downhill, select a couple. Eight One Picks on this defense and LaFleur seems contented, watching the malaise.
PeteK
December 18, 2023 at 11:28 am
-- We don't need to draft another WR because we have plenty of talent there already. O line needs an infusion of talent which will improve running attack and passing.
--- Our defense was embarrassingly shredded, let a terrible offense easily drive down for a winning FG Mon, and some are talking about drafting a WR and getting Melton more involved. Bizarro world.
stockholder
December 18, 2023 at 11:54 am
Your Wrong- Get as many weapons as you can.
Never Leave a weapon for another team.
They'll tear any defense apart.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 03:22 pm
Playmakers with blue chip status have to be secured.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:23 pm
Bo Melton used in the MVS role means spreading the opposing defense. They have to send their fastest guy to try to cover him, and then it's a question of conditioning. Melton should win that due to being fresh.
Guam
December 18, 2023 at 08:07 am
I'd rather see the Packers draft some O-line talent than another WR. There are at least three spots on the O-line (LT, RG, C) that could use a talent infusion. Give Love more time in the pocket as well as an effective run game and the need for another speedster at WR won't be an issue.
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 08:18 am
Remember though, the draft is 7 rounds deep. Yes while we could improve our OL, and other positions, we could still look to add a vertical threat at WR.
Honestly if we could add a guy like MVS in the middle rounds, I'd be happy with that. Someone that can specialize in a deep ball, and big playmaking type of guy.
Coldworld
December 18, 2023 at 08:35 am
MVS was a gamble on an athlete with plenty of questions. Big receivers who have real speed and have put up numbers don’t last beyond round 1. Watson made round 2 because he was a high upside low floor small school gamble, and then only just. Expecting to find that kind of player in the mid/late rounds is highly optimistic, more so if an immediate impact is hoped for.
We already have Melton, he’s not tall but he’s probably faster than Watson. The Seahawks saw him as a primarily perimeter player until injury derailed his camp. We could have used him yesterday, but we didn’t really try. He’s a guy who we might find is a better alternative speed option next year than we’d pick up after day one in the draft. Yet we chose not to try it.
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 08:38 am
The second round seems to be the sweet spot for speculating on high ceiiling-low floor pass catchers.
Coldworld
December 18, 2023 at 08:42 am
To me, we’ve got other needs for the early picks that are greater. Of course, if a special opportunity arises one never wisely ignores it.
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 09:07 am
I think when you see your offense fluctuate so wildly around a player like Watson--who has so far missed so much time--you've got to hedge your bets and find a way to become less reliant on that one player. I also point out that many younger players struggle with soft-tissue injuries until they get their training regimen right--of course, some never do.
That said, I'm a pretty firm believer in getting the best talent available in the first two days of the draft...and need often dictates to some degree who those guys are.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:31 pm
IOL. 3 picks there is not too much. Our TE duo could take much of the running game so that we don't need a superstar RB, but one of those is always good to have. #31 Wilson, Goodson and Nichols might be enough if Kraft and Musgrave both excel. Of course I'd prefer our double headed monster of prime #33 and 28, but that may never happen and we might not have either next season.
Houndog
December 18, 2023 at 08:51 am
The Packers have somewhere around $6.9M of cap space with only 42 players under contract for next year. Cap Hell!
A lot of today's guys will be gone before the draft. Trying to think of what position to draft looks important today is a bit premature at this point.
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 09:10 am
Pete Dougherty did a piece on JSOnline the other day and outlined the moves the Packers are going to need to make this off-season--including some restructures, pay cuts, and releases. He's expecting the Packers will generate some room under the cap and be able to make some modest signings in FA.
PeteK
December 18, 2023 at 11:37 am
Yes, Rogers's contract will be off the bks.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:32 pm
"Modest signings in FA" that total less than keeping those players we'd prefer to, yes.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 03:37 pm
The CAP is rumored to be moving Up another $ 20M.
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 09:06 am
Using a 5th round or later pick on players a lot of times is taking a shot on their athletic abilities. They usually are missing something in there game, but you are taking a shot because you believe they can do something well for you. MVS had a fantastic rookie year. He never really improved from that, but he was a good draft pick.
You can find guys in rounds 3 on later that can contribute as a deep threat.
I would have loved to seen them taking a shot with Melton. I noticed his speed a few times on the field. I'd like to see him brought up to the 53 honestly. Let him finish the year seeing what he can give us every game.
stockholder
December 18, 2023 at 12:25 pm
We don't have a 5th rd. pick. It was traded with Douglass.
WE have Buffalo's 3.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 03:45 pm
Wicks is the steal of this draft. MVS is old news, doubt Andy Reid retains him next season.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 03:29 pm
Melton (4.34) and Watson (4.36) are relatively the same speed wise. Watson, however; is a 6-3 1/2 guy with a 39"-0 vertical. Melton can be a guy to work the zones out of the slot with his quickness.
Guam
December 18, 2023 at 09:30 am
I think the Packers already have an MVS replacement in Bo Melton. Not quite as big, but similar speed. Given the Packer's track record with mid round big fast WRS (MVS, J'mon Moore) versus their track record with mid round offensive linemen, I would rather see the Packers draft IOL in the mid rounds.
I would echo CW's comments that big, fast WRs rarely last past the second round unless they are significantly flawed in some way. Good O-linemen can slip to round four if not later. I just don't see the Packers drafting much in the way of WRs this spring. They have greater needs elsewhere.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:38 pm
Bo Melton is faster than MVS. #9 and 11 are each .01slower in the 40, which is functionally identical.
We never want the stable to run dry like it had before last year, but Gutey can go without drafting another WR at least this upcoming season. All 8 are great! Melton and #9 are the 2 that are closest to direct substitutes for each other, making it easier for JL10 to adjust to different targets. All the rest are unique and different from each other. Wicks did some things last night I've never seen Davante Adams do.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:25 pm
We have 3 like that, #9, 11 & 80. #11 is our slot receiver. Bo Melton should be 9's direct substitute when he's out with injury.
Tundraboy
December 18, 2023 at 10:46 am
Oh yeah , our first priority has to be OL we need an online.
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 11:14 am
I think we also need to upgrade our defensive backfield as well. Not too long ago, we had three pretty talented corners. Now one was traded, one just came off his second IR and the third has missed 6 games in a row. Valentine is showing some potential but we still need more. And yes, at least two sb drafted on the OL, a running back and defensive line could use another stud as well.
I do like the best available thinking especially since we seem to have a lot of needs.
PeteK
December 18, 2023 at 11:41 am
However, this defense needs a safety that can tackle and cover. Winfield, who had 10 tkls yesterday, is a free agent and young. I would also add a high drafted S.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:44 pm
Agreed on all that. Evaluating talent on the bench is essential for Gutey to be able to draft well. DBs are all known quantities at this point, I think. As are LBs. Plenty of development still needed, which will apparently never happen with the current coaching staff.
O line, Mt Caleb, Telfort and Tenuta need to be evaluated. Rhyan vs JRJ and Nijman vs Walker haven't even been solved yet. The too 3 draft picks on O line wouldn't be too much IMHO. Even if we assume OT is covered by Nijman Walker Mt Caleb Telfort and Tenuta, with Tom at C or RG.
stockholder
December 18, 2023 at 12:12 pm
Try. LT, S, CB, RB- Benson or Wr if he's gone.
But the flip is CB, S, OT, ILB, DL in 3.
mrtundra
December 18, 2023 at 08:38 am
We had Melton on the roster for this game. He's almost as fast as Watson and I only saw one ball thrown his way and don't recall any deep balls to him. Thought they could have used Melton to take the top off the Buc's defense, but that never materialized.
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 08:40 am
He's far enough down the depth chart that he's not going to get many snaps. You're going to end up taking better players off the field to give him reps. He started playing more when Reed got dinged--2 targets, I think.
Coldworld
December 18, 2023 at 08:48 am
In a general sense yes, but tactically that’s not necessarily true. If you want to stretch the field you do it occasionally to establish the threat. If it works, then be prepared to rethink and adjust, if not, just use it to change things up a few times.
We did not, so it probably was not a strategy. Lack of vision, excess personnel caution, or were the alternatives so much better it wasn’t worth a shot?
T7Steve
December 18, 2023 at 10:02 am
How far could he get down the field in the 2.3 seconds or less that Love enjoyed of clean pockets? Maybe the passes that he was targeted were supposed to be deep passes that because of the O-line went as far as they could?
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:52 pm
The MVS role requires opposing defenses to send their fastest man to try to keep up. This leaves somebody else more able to get open. If their D doesn't do this, that leaves our deep shot WIDE OPEN. Even with MVS' 50% catch rate, it doesn't take long before they need to honor that.
Bo Melton is the perfect substitute for #9, who is the perfect replacement for MVS.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:49 pm
Dobber,
Reed did not have his speed accessible. I think he was substantially less than 100% before opening kickoff, and then got hurt more during the game. Hopefully it's nothing serious, but he may never be 100% again for the rest of the season. Elevating Bo Melton was a good move. He should directly replace #9 whenever he's out due to injury. The MVS role helps even if never thrown to.
stockholder
December 18, 2023 at 12:01 pm
It's the height and speed combo.
Dobbs and Reed will not be extended.
Wicks gets open and his size brings extra yards.
Watson gets double teamed for a reason.
Nobody is talking rd 1 wr.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:56 pm
Reed gets open more than anybody else, has more targets than anybody else, and more yards than anybody else. A healthy #11 should be considered WR1, by JL, MLF, OC, and everyone else in the organization.
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 01:57 pm
They've got two years on Doubs and three on Reed to figure out what to do with them. Talking extension rather than development at this stage is dumb.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:46 pm
Bo Melton is faster than #9. He should be used as a direct replacement when #9 is out.
I wish we had a HC that was never behind fans or sports writers.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 03:54 pm
No time for a seven step drop. Love has to perform fast with this leaking O line. Watson changes the Game when he's on the field. The Pack has poor depth at the RB position which makes it a long day for #10.
Fubared
December 18, 2023 at 08:46 am
I disagree. First Watson for his speed seems to be covered almost always. Unlike Gordy who could run away from the defender Watson doesnt use his speed the right way.
Second, one just has to take a peek into Mr Loves three years of college ball and you'll see by the stats he avg 8 yards a pass, he was very inaccurate on longer throws and he had a pensaty for interceptions, 17 of them his final year and that was a 12 game season.
So we drafted a guy who isnt good at reading defenses, cant pass long accurately and throws a lot of picks.
This is why the long ball is non existant and teams no that and defend the short routes heavely. They have nothing to fear from Love.
LambeauPlain
December 18, 2023 at 09:49 am
Ignorant comment.
LLCHESTY
December 18, 2023 at 02:02 pm
Well he's a Viking fan so....
Packerpasty
December 18, 2023 at 05:48 pm
but everything he said about Loves college days is correct...so being correct is ignorant or he's ignorant cuz he hasn't bought fully into the "Love train" of thought? Let the season play out and next year no more excuses..no more "but theyre young" b.s.....
PeteK
December 18, 2023 at 11:45 am
Only 4 QBs in the NFL have more TDs than him.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:17 pm
Bo Melton is faster than Christian Watson.
stockholder
December 18, 2023 at 12:20 pm
It's about staying on your feet after the catch.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:58 pm
It's about winning. Nothing else matters.
Cheezehead72
December 18, 2023 at 07:17 am
So living outside the Packers viewing area can come in handy. Instead of watching the Packers make another MVP QB I was able to watch real defensive football.
Yes, Berry needs to be fired. Unless there is a defensive coach MLF wants to check out to see if there is potential then I say keep Berry until the end of the season. If we keep Berry the rest of the season he needs to be told to get more aggressive. Start out with run blitzes and then use a lot of pressures and blitzes. The best friend of a young secondary, and veteran for that matter, is a good front seven that is sacking and pressuring the QB.
Coldworld
December 18, 2023 at 07:26 am
The Barry D has resolved into rush the front 4 and hope with soft off coverage behind. We don’t have a single DB who excels playing off, they are all press types, but no matter. It’s just rush and hope and we’ve now seen, a false one most of the time.
BAMABADGER
December 18, 2023 at 08:10 am
That’s why you play a press, man up secondary. This a concept foreign to the Dingle. Of course you also need punishing, tackling DBs and Safeties.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:01 pm
Owens tackles hard, but isn't assignment sure. Valentine plays hard, but gets penalized a lot.
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 08:34 am
The Giants and Bucs did what teams were doing to the Packers last year and earlier this year which is running pass-catchers across the middle and letting them RAC. The Bucs killed the Packers yesterday between the numbers...they weren't going over the top. It was almost all catch-and-run, and forcing the Packers to tackle.
Douglas is a zone CB. He was the outlier in the CB room...and for a few weeks, it seemed that the Packers were going to shift to take advantage of their CBs skill sets. I think they were scared of Mike Evans yesterday and schemed specifically to take him away...and the Bucs were happy to ream the Packers with Godwin.
Coldworld
December 18, 2023 at 08:56 am
Did someone not tell Barry Douglas is no longer in the room? If you don’t have the pieces to play that way, prudence suggests finding an alternative strategy. Barry has never seemed to care about players strengths as much his scheme, and that’s rarely a recipe for success.
T7Steve
December 18, 2023 at 10:15 am
Did you see the first TD to Evans? He was almost contested for the catch, but not quite. At the same time Godwin was over on the other side of the endzone waving his hands with no one around him. I knew they'd go back to it at that point and make it a long day.
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 11:27 am
I did see that T7. I could not believe and realized we were screwed.
Pretty depressing in Packerland right now.
Fubared
December 18, 2023 at 08:48 am
Barry aint going anywhere for now. Until the news media and tv annoucers in the local markets start harping on it on tv and radio, no one in management is listening
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 12:59 pm
JB said he was going to be more aggressive this season.
JB is a liar, and MLF enables him.
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 07:18 am
Game Balls: I would like to add Love to this category. When a QB completes about 75% of his passes, that is a good thing. I don't care if they are short passes.
Lame Calls: totally agree especially on the defensive coaching.
Fubared
December 18, 2023 at 08:49 am
I do. If thats all you got is short stuff, you bring the defenses into positions to not only cover those routes but move up to stop any open runners. It becomes a sqeeze box where your so called gifted receivers are operating in traffic all game.
That dont last long as we've seen this season.
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 11:29 am
I beg to differ with you fubared. Yes, I stated the short passes but he threw plenty of mid range as well and couldn't throw long as no one was available to run that fast/far or at least they did not run those plays. Think back a few games and look at the passes he completed!
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:03 pm
JL didn't have the protection for deep throws.
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 01:59 pm
Don't feed the troll
Irelandseye
December 18, 2023 at 07:24 am
Here's a really crazy thought I had driving into work this morning. What if Joe Barry actually showed a little bit of class, by resigning his position immediately? It's not like this will magically resolve itself. And being fired is just adding a huge amount of humiliation to an already terrible situation. Is it arrogance, delusion or money? Hmmmm.
Coldworld
December 18, 2023 at 07:28 am
What if the man who appointed him and retained him had that integrity?
Then we might really have a chance of getting out of the endless repeats of the same failings.
Bitternotsour
December 18, 2023 at 10:03 am
MLF will fire him. It will be his last gasp attempt to keep his job - the reality is this is LaFleur's defense. Barry works for him. They are philosophically sympatico. LaFleur is the cancer, Barry is the symptom.
Irelandseye
December 18, 2023 at 11:29 am
Agree. When LaFleur backed Barry at the end of last season for "continuity sake", that was de facto assuming 100% responsibility IMO. He backed him so he should be sacked with him. This is business.
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 11:31 am
Agreed. I have made that same point repeatedly in the past as well.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 10:06 am
This is a top to bottom requirement. Kleen haus. Bring in a NEW Culture as Wolf did in 1991. His remnants do not impress.
Bitternotsour
December 18, 2023 at 04:25 pm
Wolf's new culture was Mike Sherman. A second consecutive fail. Mike Sherman as GM. Jesus, I just don't know why people think Ron Wolf walked on water. He knew the quarterback he wanted and he had a big old checkbook to wave at Reggie, but beyond that the mistakes were HUGE. Mike Sherman as a GM. It took a while to dig out of that hole, thank goodness we had sound leadership that hired Ted Thompson.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 05:41 pm
Wolf just swept up some of the glory daze and was Lucky Glanville was incompetent. He whiffed on Andy Reid and the sherman hire made me hurl. I don't believe in giving Gold Jackets to guys who don't play the Game.
Cheezehead72
December 18, 2023 at 07:53 am
I do not know what type of person you are and I mean nothing negative with this question because almost all people would not resign. Would you resign if you could keep your salary if you are fired? Berry is under contract and he will get paid until the end of the contract. After all he can not hurt his cause for another coaching gig.
His best bet is to be hired by another team as a "What Not To Do" consultant. In other words he would be there to tell the DC what not to do.
Irelandseye
December 18, 2023 at 10:05 am
You make a fair Point. I've no idea how his contract works but I'm pretty certain that a mature conversation where both sides agree to pay him until the end of the season would be a mutually beneficial outcome. At least he would be seen to make the right decision when it comes to future opportunities. A little more marketable than being fired I would think. Optics are important. Would you employ a guy who demonstrated he could make the right choice when the writings on the wall, or the guy who arrogantly hung on until he was fired? Thankfully I've never been in a situation like this. I'd like to think integrity and honour would be major parts of my decision-making process.
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 11:33 am
LaFleur just needs to have the balls to do his job and get rid of Barry or he will be gone as well. And really, since he did not dump him at the end of last season, I would not have a problem him leaving as well. Barry having another piss poor year is on LaFleur.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:08 pm
MLF should also realize he's in over his head trying to call plays along with all HC duties. OC duties he does well, every weakness he has is within the HC job description. MLF should take a demotion to OC, OC Stenavitch should return to O line position group coach where he was good, and Butkus should be shown the door.
I expect none of this will happen, along with JB's removal. (Although JB might be replaced after the season is over?)
jvole
December 18, 2023 at 07:25 am
I'm worried MLF will pick another mediocre DC so that the fans do not start to lobby that the new DC replace him. No freakin way he hires Belichick or Allen.
But I am super hopeful because of the talent on this team. They just might have two excellent tight ends. And a room full of talented receivers. Need some more talent on the OL and running back and the Offense will be very good next year.
The defense will be meh until Barry is gone.
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 08:16 am
When MLF hired Barry, he was looking for a scheme, not a mind. That was some mistake. There's some hope in that when they finally moved on from Drayton, they went after the big name with a pedigree (Bisaccia) and some chutzpah. Maybe he does that again? Belichick and Allen are no-go's. They're unlikely to move backward in this way. Watch Brandon Staley: he's now on the market and he and LaF have a relationship. Staley had one good year as a DC with the Rams (when he had guys like Jalen Ramsay, Suh, and Aaron Donald), but was over his head as an HC with the Chargers.
We're at the stage where the fan base is challenging the commitment of the defensive depth chart. They're challenging just about everything to do with the defense. So a jolt might be necessary to get the attention of players and assistants. Canning Barry would send the message that jobs are on the line and that everyone needs to step up. It would be an unusual step in accountability from LaF, and would probably indicate internal pressure that he's not been used to getting.
If the Packers make a move on Barry, it will likely be today. They'll want the full week under an interim DC to prep for Carolina--an offensive softball that would be good for a new defensive playcaller to warm up against. There may be some heat to move on from above after yesterday's debacle...yahoos here say that Murphy doesn't care, but he doesn't like bad pub, and he might force the issue.
Part of the problem is that there's really nobody in-house who has much experience beyond position coach---and a bitch-slap to the first person who suggests Rich Bisaccia, who hasn't coached defense since I was in college. Jerry Montgomery was a DC at the JC level. He's got more experience than anyone else on the defensive side. Jason Rebrovich was also a DC on the college level. Some had pointed to Ryan Downard as an up-and-comer. At some point, though, they have to grasp the notion that the status quo is stagnating players. Something needs to change.
I'll reiterate: there's no way the Packers move on from Barry and hire an outside guy as a DC in-season. It won't happen. An outside guy would not want to run Barry's fundamental schemes and Barry's terminology, and he'd want his own assistants who are versed in his scheme. He'd want to run his own defense, and that kind of installation would be a train wreck mid-season.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:16 pm
Absolutely should hire Belichick as DC and maybe ST too.
0 draft capital spent on D if JB hasn't been replaced.
jlc1
December 18, 2023 at 07:31 am
Last year Barry earned some slack after the D shut down Minnesota in week 17. We can only hope he does it again but MLF sees that it is possible to do and needs to be done more often than Barry ever has or will.
Fubared
December 18, 2023 at 08:52 am
Dont worry. Mullins the third string QB the vikes had handy and ready to go will carve up that defense and their fouth string running back and fifth string running back will put up 150 yards.
Ya for some reason the Vikes have talent just sitting around waiting to play and they dont have to suffer when they lose their qb, two starting running backs. they seem to have a farm system that works.
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 07:33 am
Game Balls:
Love -
He was much improved from last week. He also made perhaps his best throw of his career on the TD to Reed. Think about what was happening around Love. His number 1 RB was back but was clearly on a snap count. His number 2 RB missed his first game of his career. His top WR was out. His top 2 rookie WR's were injured but gutting it out. He has 1 TE. And his OL was not giving him a lot of time to make throws.
Reed -
He is a stud. Simply put. He was clearly playing hurt, yet still was making plays.
Wicks-
A high ankle sprain and yet he was still out here. Not only that he put up 97 yards on 6 catches.
Enagbare -
His superman play was a wow play. on a day where the defense was just abused, that play was clearly the biggest highlight. It was an impressive play.
Lame Calls:
Barry -
If he isn't fired today, it is only because LaFleur is trying to do the honorable thing and not fire a coach in season. I don't care its over. He needs to go. i have been saying this for a very long time, but Barry needs to go. I don't care who they put in his place. If it is up to me I am LaFleur and I'm on the phone calling Jim Leonard. He is the guy he wanted to start with. He is available. Go get him, let him run the defense for the final 3 games. Let him get a bit familiar with the players so that in the offseason he will have an understanding to what he has.
Defensive players -
This isn't all on Barry. The players played poorly as well. I will give them somewhat of a pass. Just because knowing you are beat before the play starts based on the call, means you are beat before the play. There clearly is a disconnect with the players and coach, regardless of what anyone says. Regardless, they have to play better. Tackling is bad, the angles they take is bad. They are not able to get off of blocks. Just bad.
Three and out:
Kraft -
I almost gave him a game ball. I don't think i can get a game ball to someone who tries to leap over a guy and takes a shot to the nuts. But man has he been good since Musgrave has been out. I can't wait to see these 2 guys together moving forward. Kraft and Musgrave are going to form one hell of a duo!
Carlson -
He quietly put together another good game. Making all of his kicks. He has really had a good rookie year.
Offensive coaching -
I had no problem going for it on 4th down. Actually said they needed to. They had the right play call. Love just needs to set his feet and make the throw. that should be a TD every throw! The decision and play call were good. The execution was not. Also I love sending a message. That its all gas no brakes!
I would like to see the replay again because I felt the spot was bad, and i was good with the decision to challenge. Also by the looks of it, he had the first down. if he doesn't challenge that where he had the first down, and they don't end up getting the first down you know how many people would be calling for his head. I get why people say don't challenge it, But to me it looked like a for sure thing. The spotting of the ball looked behind.
Bonus thought -
Should I hope GB loses to the Panthers? This is a though. I don't know the situation, but if the Packers were to lose to Carolina, they can possibly screw the Bears out of the first pick in the draft. Currently the Packers would hold the 11th pick in the draft. If they lost to Carolina. They could potentially move into the top 5 with a loss, and knock the Bears out of the top pick. Should I be rooting for this?
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 08:04 am
"If they lost to Carolina. They could potentially move into the top 5 with a loss, and knock the Bears out of the top pick. Should I be rooting for this?"
I have been having thoughts about this as well as it seems like the playoffs are not in our reach. However, Carolina with a win would still have the top pick, currently held by the Bears.
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 08:19 am
Yeah I'm not sure how it would playout right now with Carolina and their strength of schedule. But they could also maybe win another game after that too.
Since'75
December 18, 2023 at 08:09 am
RC....
If the Packers lose to the Panthers, maybe everyone should be fired....everyone.
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 08:24 am
Barry is the only one that truly needs to be fired right now.
Offensively there really isn't anyone that needs to be fired right now. Offense is dealing with a new starting QB this year, A RB room that is banged up, a WR room that is banged up, a TE room that is missing its number 1. Hell the RB and WR room has played a lot of games without its number 1. Also been without its LT since week 1. There has been a lot going on offensively.
We can argue since week 1 the offense has improved. That they have gotten better each week.
But Defensively, there is no more excuses. The DC keeps putting players in poor positions. He doesn't make adjustments to slow down what is going on. One could argue that the Defense has regressed as the season has went on.
Its time for a change.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:30 pm
Butkus is the #1 priority for firing. He's a Chicago plant, sent here to sabotage the team.
Stenavitch was at least good as O line position group coach. Move MLF down to OC and this O would be good, assuming an actual HC to work under.
JB obviously needs to go to. The entire strength and conditioning staff needs to be replaced, they've been bad, for years.
The TE coach has never played TE.
DB coach is at least suspect, as is everyone associated with defending against the run. I haven't paid attention to D position coaches though, JB is the dark cloud over all that. Just like MM is the dark cloud presiding over the entire organizational dysfunction.
Since'75
December 18, 2023 at 02:13 pm
RC, just a little FYI......
85% of what i write in here is tongue in cheek or bathed in sarcasm.
I understand it sometimes gets lost in translation when typed.
I just need to learn to use these emoji's more often 😉😏
Enjoy reading your comments RC, rock on.
Oppy
December 18, 2023 at 08:13 am
A whole lot of poor short and intermediate throws from Love yesterday. It wasn't quite as bad as last week, but it was still an extension of it.
He needs to get focused and get it fixed before all the balls delivered from unnecessarily bad platforms becomes habit. It's similar to kids playing basketball that take every shot as a fade away jumper regardless if they have a defender with a hand in their face.. unnecessarily adding difficulty and it's affecting accuracy.
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 08:25 am
Overall he was much better this game compared to his last game. But he still needs to have better footwork. The throw to Reed was really bad. He did miss a few others. But he was good overall.
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 08:49 am
He completed 75% of his passes...
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 09:07 am
Exactly! There was as stretch where he hit like 11+ in a row.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 10:17 am
The play calling lacks rhythm. He didn't push the long ball because the O line is a sieve. His footwork has to be a constant. Tampa was without two of their starters in the secondary and LaFleur could not take advantage of this?
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 11:32 am
I think you answered your own question. The OL did not give them enough time for deep plays, also we were basically without 3 of our deep threats. Well we had 2 of them, but they didn't have a 5th gear. They were playing injured.
It has more to do with what players they had available, then it had to do with the playcalling/design.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:34 pm
Absolute bs. Bo Melton is faster than #9.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:32 pm
75% completion rate is good by anyone's standards.
croatpackfan
December 18, 2023 at 08:14 am
"Defensive players -
This isn't all on Barry. The players played poorly as well."
I agree that isn't all on Barry. But forget to call players for playing poorly. Think of this: "Packers sign you to be deep threat and you have no speed in yor legs for that. Fans calls you for playing poorly."
As I said I agree that isn't all on Barry. Main culprit, by MHO are Mark WANI Murphy & and his coward protege MLF. Barry has no enough knowledge to play system that suits his players. He knows only zone D and even that knowledge is questionable does he knows how to teach the players how to play that system. Taking in consideration his history at Detroit and Washington I doubt.
And I want to ask you who is responsible to keep bad performance employee on the team?
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 08:28 am
I completely agree Croat. Players are put in positions that they won't win in routinely. How many times did we see Campbell lined up on Godwin? WAY to many.
My main point with the players was that they missed tackles and things like that.
That being said doesn't take away from Barry needing to be gone!
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:36 pm
The Packers do not play fundamentally sound football. That includes tackling, footwork, player evaluation development and selection, clock management, and in-game adjustments.
Tundraboy
December 18, 2023 at 10:51 pm
And that is all about coaching. This must be eventually about a return to a Packer culture that has withered away.
21Savage
December 18, 2023 at 08:19 am
The Packers losing to the Panthers would be the equivalent of that loss to the Cardinals in 2018. Everyone has to go because it will be stark evidence of a deep rot within the team.
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 08:34 am
I don't view the need for LaFleur to be gone regardless of what happens. There is so much going on offensively. No healthy RB's. No healthy WR's. OL is not playing great. There is just so much going on with this offense to place blame on people.
Also I believe Love and young offensive playmakers have gotten better. That to me gives credit to LaFleur and the offensive staff for the most part. This is a system that if it has the players, can be very good. The problem right now is that the players are injured and inexperienced. So it will take a while.
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 11:42 am
I would agree with you to a certain extent that LaFleur needs some credit. However, I noticed at least a couple of times yesterday where we had two WR's real close together when a pass arrived. Someone did not know the play. So is that on the players or the coaches? Maybe a bit of both?
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 12:26 pm
At the end of the day they are still a lot of rookie WR's out there. They are still going to make mistakes. Everyone is human. I would assume its based on coverages and whatnot. And one just read it wrong. It happens. Not everything that happens needs to come with blame. Shit happens sometimes.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:39 pm
MLF's errors in clock management have lost many games. He can't call plays and be HC without something suffering. It's just too much for him, and might be too much for anyone.
PeteK
December 18, 2023 at 05:27 pm
If a player doesn't know the play that is practiced , it's on the player!!
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:37 pm
"Fire everybody" is not a great team building technique.
T7Steve
December 18, 2023 at 08:26 am
"They could potentially move into the top 5 with a loss, and knock the Bears out of the top pick. Should I be rooting for this?"
Why not let them have it? You know their record with first round pick, don't you?
We real Packer fans can never root for a loss to even the Viqueens, let alone the Bears.
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 09:09 am
That is another thought too. But eventually they will make the right moves.
I won't root for a loss to the Vikings or the Bears. But I'm questioning if a loss to the Panthers is something that could be a good thing as it hurts the Bears. Just a thought.
Look i'm a competitor. I want them to win every time they are on the field! But a part of me wants to see the Bears miss out on a lot of premium picks.
Irelandseye
December 18, 2023 at 04:52 pm
The Viqueens? That must have been funny the first time it was uttered…… a long long time ago.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:24 pm
Never root to lose.
Unless you live in NJ.
Do not move to NJ. (I am NJ born and raised)
fireball
December 18, 2023 at 07:43 am
That is a thought: Keep Joe Barry on defense for the rest of the season hoping that we lose all three games and end up with higher draft picks.
Houndog
December 18, 2023 at 08:19 am
RC and FireBall,
I thought about the same thing, and the "Packers can do no wrong' crowd will crucify us with thumbs downs, but reality is reality, the Packers are not ready for the playoffs. Their not good enough 'Yet'!
AS for Barry, we all know he has to go, but I think the press is asking LaFleur all the wrong questions.
Instead of asking him about Barry, who he'll always protect, ask him why HE can't design an offense that can get guys wide open on 3rd and 23 like teams do to him? Ask him why HE can't get a yard on 4th and 1 when we need it most? Ask him why HE can't get guys wide open in the middle of the field on nearly every play? Why can't HE design plays that put LBs on speedy wide-outs? Make it personal. Put him on the spot! Push for an answer!
Keep asking the same questions every week, week after week. Maybe that's what it takes for him to open his eyes, he's the Head Coach that was supposed to be some kind of 'Offensive Mind', and he's in charge. Why can't HE do what teams consistently do to him? Doesn't he learn from watching the games? Can't he see how it's done? Everyone is doing pretty much the same thing to you weekly, do you actually watch the game film, Matt?
He'd get that butt-hurt look like always, but I'd love to hear some answers.
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 12:00 pm
What is the Packers BOD like? Are they a bunch of yes people or don't they have the balls to get involved? You can bet that if we were owned by Jerry Jones or some other owner, they would not stand for this.
Look I am happy the way the current ownership is as far as who owns us and would not want to be owned by a Jones or whoever, but shouldn't there be some kind of involvement above the front office since they don't seem to want to do anything?
BAMABADGER
December 18, 2023 at 09:55 pm
BOD are bankers, WI business CEOs and HR types (code word for another descriptor). Non- football types that are more interest in developing "Packerland" not winning championships. They will not pressure MM to retire early or force him to make changes in football operational personnel or structure. This football operational silo mess is MM's creation.
Tundraboy
December 18, 2023 at 11:03 pm
MM is the steward. They are sheep.
Since'75
December 18, 2023 at 08:03 am
Thinking out loud.......
If there was anything good about the defense yesterday, it was Kenny Clark, who played pursuant to his contract.
That....is what they are paying for.
What's up with Jaire Alexander?
There seems to be some internal tension there.
Which isn't all that surprising to me as history tells us the Packers just seem to have some dysfunction with star players somewhere along the line.
See Z. Smith, D. Adams, and a long list of others.
I was never a fan of the Rasul Douglas trade. As a matter of fact i thought it bordered on dereliction of duty.
Would have been nice to see him out there yesterday.
Was Preston Smith inactive again for the 2nd week in a row?
I miss seeing his hulk pose every 230 snaps.
Gamblers......
If there are end of season odds from Vegas on Barry losing his job.....TAKE IT.
Because nothing can save him at this point.
He will no doubt, be the fall guy.
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 08:08 am
Preston Smith played yesterday.
RE: Gamblers-I would not take the bet. We thought he was gone after last season and voila, he is still here.
RE: Rasul Douglas trade. I don't understand this trade either. The only thing I have read is that Gute said it was too good of a deal to pass up. I think they gave up a lot more than they gained. Thoughts anyone?
21Savage
December 18, 2023 at 08:24 am
Getting a third rounder for a veteran they were going to let walk in free agency anyway seems like a good deal, especially during a "development" season. It's clear that Valentine/Ballentine are who they were always planning on rolling with next year, so they got something for him instead of getting nothing (or a 6th round compensatory pick or whatever it would have been).
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 12:02 pm
Savage, I think Douglas had another year on his contract and we did a third round pick in next year's draft but we had to give up a fifth round pick.
Since'75
December 18, 2023 at 02:31 pm
So Preston was out there, i musta missed it 😏
I think the Douglas trade moved us up in the 3rd round, i think.
Those third round picks are like gold in Green Bay!!
Why would we need a corner who picked off 10 passes for us and who actually cares about winning, we got Stokes and a 7th round pick.
Douglas may be another guy that the Packers didn't want around and/or see eye to eye with, he voiced his opinion....and that isn't always allowed in Green Bay.
jannesbjornson
December 18, 2023 at 04:13 pm
Hammer clobbers nail, grasshopper...
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:47 pm
21Savage,
Gutey gave up a pick AND Rasul Douglas, to move up about 40 spots, into the third round. Where Gutey's been terrible. There is 0 chance that pick contributes more than Rasul Douglas by the end of next season. Gutey gave Rasul away for NOTHING.
At market price, at the time, it was the best Gutey could get. That's what you call collapsing under pressure. It also sent the message that no matter how well you play, you're worthless to the organization. That's a very good way to lose the locker room, especially combined with JB's idiocy and outright lies.
croatpackfan
December 19, 2023 at 03:20 am
Will we agree that Tucker Kraft is terrible 3rd round pick?
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 08:30 am
Preston Smith is one of the few guys on this unit earning his money.
The Packers are 4-3 since dealing Douglas. They were 2-5 before that and playing games that looked a lot like the NYG and Bucs. Buffalo was 5-3 before the Douglas trade--3-3 since. I don't think either really has much to do with him, per se. They were either going to need to force a pay-cut in 2024 or cut Douglas. For a team that was 2-5 at the time, it was a good return on a player who had some value. Get over it people...it's a crutch for people who make shitty arguments.
Bitternotsour
December 18, 2023 at 10:10 am
That my friend, will likely leave a mark.
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 10:16 am
I ain't here to make friends...just cookies.
Tundraboy
December 18, 2023 at 11:23 am
Lmao! Here's a dozen.
HawkPacker
December 18, 2023 at 12:06 pm
Dobber, I just asked for someone to explain to me why Gute thought the deal was too good to pass up. Maybe it was a good deal but to me it did not seem like such a good deal and I wanted someone's clarification.
So I am supposed to get over it???
Don't follow and btw....no cookies for you!
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:52 pm
Even if it was a deal to good to pass up, (it wasn't, Gutey just wanted to trade somebody, ANYTHING) you
DO NOT SAY THAT TO THE PLAYER!!
Gutey demonstrated that he's not a people person. Even if he were stellar at roster building, does a GM need to be a people person? It seems like part of the job to me.
Bitternotsour
December 18, 2023 at 04:26 pm
It's show BUSINESS pally. Not show friends.
Since'75
December 18, 2023 at 02:50 pm
"Preston Smith is one of the few guys on this unit earning his money." - said no one except dobber...lol
Good one my man, always keep em laughing!!
I gotta jet, i need to go stuff the Pro Bowl ballot box with Preston's name, they all count ya know!!!
The votes i put in, plus if anyone else was drunk enough to vote for him.
Oh calm down kids!!!...i know, i know....it's not just about making a Pro Bowl!!!
It's about being worth the 4 year 52 million the Packers signed him to.....right?
For that you get 1 solo tackle, and 3 assisted tackles, and zero everything else in the last 3 games....YEP dobber, earning his money!!
For that money you get one forced fumble in 14 games so far this season....
WOW.....Tell me that isn't a bargain!!!..
For that kind of money you get 5.5 sacks.....
Now i ask you people, who can perform like that for only 12 million dollars a year on average?
*******************
Well...looking at the NFL stat sheet, a lot of players can perform at that level or better, and for a hell of a lot less money.
YES SIR....For only 12 million a year, Preston Smith ranks right up there pursuant to his contract
Who else could rank 55th in the league in sacks, for only...12 million a year?
Yes sir ree.....earning his pay!!
***************
Well, dobber said Preston is earning his money, so it must be true!!
Why?..i don't know why, maybe because dobber said so, that's why.....lol
************************
Ohhh no!!!!
Hope that didn't leave a mark.
Since'75
December 19, 2023 at 06:52 pm
What's wrong dob's, you got nothing? 🤷♂️
Tundraboy
December 18, 2023 at 11:05 pm
Maybe it should have been Alexander they traded.
PackfanNY
December 18, 2023 at 08:22 am
We can and should look at every facet of the game after each game. However, this game comes down to the lack of defense. Period. Full stop. Baker Mayfield (yes it’s hard to believe) had a perfect passer rating. That’s ridiculous. Then again when guys are wide open play after play it becomes clear. The defense was pathetically bad.
Packer_Fan
December 18, 2023 at 08:23 am
In the off season, I figured there would be offensive ups and downs during the season. And yes there is. But I would say there is progress.
But for the Packers to be competitive this year, I thought that the defense would have to be more aggressive and wind a few games. And after last year, I had hoped that Barry would become more aggressive.
And three weeks ago after the Chiefs game, I said that these last five games, the Packers could win all or lose all. Looks like the latter will be more likely.
I get so frustrated that below average QB's have good to great games against Barry. The Packers have three games left. I doubt Lafleur will fire Barry because there is a chance still for the playoffs. I say that there will be a bad QB have another great game and the Packers will be out.
I say fire Barry now. And change the attitude of the defense and have a real chance to make the playoffs.
Barry is a poor DC. The other teams seem to know his way of defense and guess successfully the right plays to call and beat the Packers. So sad. So sad.
PeteK
December 18, 2023 at 12:09 pm
When Barry went to the booth, it was a message that things better improve. They haven't ,so he will be fired.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:53 pm
I hope.
stinkycheesehead
December 18, 2023 at 08:24 am
FIRE BARRY!!!! HE IS A PROVEN LOOSER, ONLY THING IS WE LET HIM HANG IN THERE WAY TO LONG!!!!!!
LambeauPlain
December 18, 2023 at 08:24 am
I don't want to believe it...but it seems like the D players have quit on Joe Barry.
The players know they have talent. They players also know they are being pathetically misused. They know they are disrespected and labeled soft. They know the guy designing the weekly D game plan and calling the plays would never be the DC of 31 other teams. They know Joe Barry is, and has been, a consistent DC failure his entire career. They also know he is being protected by a timid HC who has seen the D problems for nearly 3 years and has feet of clay as a leader.
For a dedicated professional football player, who works all year round improve their skills, it must be maddening to play for a coach who ignores individual player strengths play a soft, passive, uninspired defense.
I think the players are playing down to the Defense that is the Barry Ball brand. Soft, prevent (the win) passive pap that requires timely sacks and turnovers to stop anybody. And yesterday, with only one 3 and out and the remaining Bucs possessions all long scoring drives, even the sacks could not save them.
Hard for an offense to score many points when their Defense keeps them off the field.
NFLfan
December 18, 2023 at 08:54 am
Likely some truth.
NFLfan
December 18, 2023 at 08:36 am
When I heard Nagler give his choice for a D. Coordinator, my heart sang when he said Saleh.
He looks miserable @ the Jets. I know, I know--he would interpret it as a demotion but man that guy knows how to get a Defense to play for him, is a normal, good guy, knows how to recognize and develop talent and is best friends with MLF.
He could be a Co-Head coach-lol. You can't tell me those two haven't talked about it.
I bet he is fielding offers right now. (DC)
One can dream.
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 08:59 am
Saleh's an outstanding coordinator, and has a very close relationship with LaF. The Jets D was bottom of the league his first year as a HC, but were top 5 last year and top 10 this year. If he came available--and with Douglas seemingly in hot water in NY, there might be a clean sweep coming--I think teams would be lining up to hire him as a DC.
I agree: he'd be an outstanding get. Personally I think the Jets would be foolish to cut him loose.
NFLfan
December 18, 2023 at 09:14 am
@ Dobber-I am hoping he jumps ship.
LambeauPlain
December 18, 2023 at 09:59 am
Saleh would be a real and present danger to MLF, even as his good friend, to replace him.
Saleh, MLF's good friend, told his Team last season during halftime to punch his friend's Packers in the mouth and they would will wilt like a 2 week old cut flower. The Jets punched...and Packers wilted away.
Saleh joining the Packers as HC makes more sense to me.
Bitternotsour
December 18, 2023 at 10:14 am
exactly. why would Saleh join another sinking ship (this time as a coordinator?)
LaFleur is going to get fired. He should get fired. He's swimming in deep water, and he's lost sight of the shore.
Coldworld
December 18, 2023 at 10:46 am
Even if we were to get Superman somehow, it won’t fix LaFleur’s ability yo identify and develop other coaches on offense. I wonder what Flores might have made if this group. As an aside, we need to clear out this whole defensive philosophy at this point.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:58 pm
I've had the chance to analyze Florio's D with the Viqueens, and I think our players would do it better. They'd be excellent!
NFLfan
December 18, 2023 at 12:37 pm
I'm not certain Matt is going anywhere. I think the FO would consider replacing Barry though.
Neither MLF nor Saleh are narcissists and value their relationship. I trust both to remain above board.
Bitternotsour
December 18, 2023 at 04:30 pm
You do realize that Saleh FIRED LaFleur's little brother to save his own ass in NY right?
Sounds like a true caring relationship to me.
croatpackfan
December 19, 2023 at 03:34 am
So you believe "true" friends should suffer from other friend incompetence just because they are friends? True friend will warn his friend of wrong doing and if that warning jeopardize their relation, so it be... That kind of relation was never friendship. True friend talks the truth to his friends...
RCPackerFan
December 18, 2023 at 09:21 am
If they could get Saleh sign me up!!!
I just don't think he will be available to them. But if they have a chance, hell yeah!
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 01:56 pm
Saleh, Belichick, my Grandmother.
Anybody would be an improvement over JB!
Aldo
December 18, 2023 at 08:49 am
It's the lack of any sense of urgency that is worrisome. Barry should have been let go after last season, but still his incompetence comes out regularly throughout most every game. He simply lacks the ability to make adjustments when there is a glaring need to do so. LeFleur doesn't seem to bring out the best in his players either, especially when in the red zone. The entire team is showing a lack of confidence in itself, and that's due to inadequate preparation and the inability to make something happen at critical times in a game.
croatpackfan
December 19, 2023 at 03:49 am
Leaders always determine the character of the team by their character. At the moment Packers have a "leader" that is coward in making necessary decision and action. He always choose so called "safer" way. He has no gut to risk. And without the risk there is no profit.
I want to remind you how 2nd game vs Detroit started - with risky deep throw to Watson. MLF and Jordan Love agreed to start that game with that deep throw. Day after, on the morning of the game, MLF told Jordan that he has second thoughts on that play and that he might want to change it. But Jordan said, no, coach, I would do it, lets go (That facts comes by MLF own confession after the game)! Scared team is weak team. Thank God Jordan is different than MLF. He has that winner mentality in himself. And, judging by his statements, he is more on self scouting and improving himself than on talking about others mistake. That is how true winner acts - "I have to be better for me and my teammates"!
And Joe Barry? Same soft frightened person as MLF. He calls "safe" plays on D and, of course his D has no chance against agressive opponenets. Because there is nothing safe in your life or in your business, relationship etc.
Joe Barry and MLF suits themselves well. Opposite of them is Rich Bisaccia, whose attitude is very agressive and was criticized from MLF for some ST decisions he was making. He is not "safe" player.
T7Steve
December 18, 2023 at 08:50 am
Don't like the feel of the way this is going.
Is Colonel Sanders available for DC? He knows chickens and won't run around like his head was cut off.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 02:00 pm
7 herbs and spices couldn't hurt?
Fubared
December 18, 2023 at 08:55 am
Love showed once and for all he is an average at best qb and cant be the guy going forward. LeFleur has made it easy on him and I think its because Love tosses a lot of picks in practice, to throw to an outlet guy anytime he see's our guys covered which seems to be often.
Look teams now see that he cant throw the long ball so they play everybody up which means our receivers are operating in heavy traffic all game. There arent open holes in the zone for them to operate because of Loves weak arm. Ya he can rifle short passes but thats his forte, its best he's got.
Houndog
December 18, 2023 at 10:08 am
Fubared,
I'm not 100% sold on Love, but as a Packer fan in 49er territory I'll remind you that Joe Montana wasn't drafted until the 3rd round cuz he "couldn't throw the long ball".
He had a pretty nice career throwing short darts with a lot of RAC, and the 9ers still use a lot of that today.
LaFleur's play designs, or lack of it, are a big part of the problem.
Packerpasty
December 18, 2023 at 05:55 pm
one more year and you and few others wont be the only ones stating comments like this...career journeyman is what I see, league is full of them...
crayzpackfan
December 18, 2023 at 09:05 am
Go after Jim Harbaugh. He's goofy as hell, but he has won EVERYWHERE he has ever coached. He will also hire an "A" team staff.
Houndog
December 18, 2023 at 09:34 am
Jim Harbaugh?
Oh No! Please NO!
I live in 49er country and watched him when he was here, he's a total cry baby, thinks he's beyond reproach!
He's a "What", "Who", "Me", kind of guy. A "what are you talking about, I'm the greatest", kind of guy!
A no accountability kind of guy!
Please NO!
crayzpackfan
December 18, 2023 at 11:11 am
HD- I know. I cannot deny your observation as being true. But I would rather have that and win, than a guy who takes the podium every week saying "I got outcoached, we got outplayed, we have to look at the film and do better". Except, they NEVER do better.
TxFred
December 18, 2023 at 09:10 am
Outplayed. Outcoached!! MLF outclassed by Boles. TB OC outclassed Barry.
What a mess.
Houndog
December 18, 2023 at 09:12 am
It's not every day a Packers coach gets noticed by Sports Illustrated.
Congrats, Joe Barry!
Making Baker Mayfield look like an MVP candidate with a perfect QB rating finally got you there! They noticed.
Celebrate Joe! Take the wife out to dinner!
DocHoliday
December 18, 2023 at 09:28 am
Barry is done. No one in their right mind supports him. Keeping him only signals a willingness to be the worst.
Who do they hire? Don't let Murphy be any part of this process. Whoever they hire has to be on the same page as the GM. Drafting cover corners when the DC is going to call zone is never going to succeed.
On offense, everyone knows our offensive line has been a bottom 10 all season. It's clear the only two playing at a competent level are Tom and Jenkins. (Listen to Bulaga and Tausch). Gutey didn't draft any oline this year so they had no competition. This year, he needs to draft 2-3. Left tackle and right guard are killing this offense. If you have a competent line, teams stop blitzing because they are getting beat by wide open receivers. Also, Gutey needs to draft another fast WR because it's clear Watson can't stay healthy.
LambeauPlain
December 18, 2023 at 10:07 am
This is Jenkins worst season and it isn't even close. He is a warrior and is likely playing hurt. But a cohesive, well trained OL plays as a unit and know the man next to them...except in GB.
Jenks is likely playing hurt, has to rely on Myers to do his job (he can't) and adjust to musical chairs at LT because of constipated coaching decision making or a childish grudge toward Nijman who has probably told the bumbling Butkus, Stenovich and MLF he's done with this OL dysfunction and moving on.
PeteK
December 18, 2023 at 11:57 am
I guess you don't watch Nijman because if you did you would know that he is not any better than Walker. At least Walker is younger and could progress.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 02:08 pm
Pete,
Nijman has played very well. He regresses quickly when he doesn't play. He was sent to the doghouse due to favoritism, not evaluation based on merit. MLF said they would "put the best 5 on the field." He didn't. That didn't even factor into the decision. He played favorites.
MLF lied. JB lied saying he'd play more aggressive like all his players said they wanted when he asked them at the end of last season.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 18, 2023 at 02:04 pm
Doc,
Bo Melton is faster than #9. Our C has collapsed on a lot of plays. High draft picks on O line, stay there.
BAMABADGER
December 18, 2023 at 10:59 pm
Agree with O-line, but what is the infatuation with Bo Melton? Yes, he may be fast. He has been in the league 2 years and has 1 catch for 7 yards. There may be several reasons he doesn't play. One might be his size 5' 11" and 185 lbs. He hasn't even been an option for STs?? I have to believe he is a poor man's Jayden Reed who is the same size, fast (4.37) and much quicker moves and a better route runner and hands.
SicSemperTyrannis
December 19, 2023 at 06:56 am
Bo Melton is faster than #11.
BAMABADGER
December 19, 2023 at 12:29 pm
Faster by 0.03 seconds of straight line speed.... irrelevant.
stinkycheesehead
December 18, 2023 at 09:44 am
THIS IS SIMPLE,THE YOUNG PLAYERS (def and off) ARE A WORK IN PROGRESS, WHAT WE NEED RIGHT NOW MORE THAN EVER IS A NEW D.C.
LambeauPlain
December 18, 2023 at 10:13 am
How can it happen that Preston and Campbell are covering WRs for so many plays?
It is Barry Ball at its full incompetent glory.
Playing the predictable prevent (the win) soft zone would encourage the opponent's OC to design plays to pass to his speedy WRs as they run through the slower LBs zone.
SMH. But "now is not the time" to discuss any DC changes. Another SMH.
Packers0808
December 18, 2023 at 10:37 am
Just read on MSN that Barry will be fired in the next few days "according to sources"!
Houndog
December 18, 2023 at 10:53 am
"the next few days"?
What's wrong with "the next few Minutes"?
Packers0808
December 18, 2023 at 10:57 am
Probably right, but just passing along what I saw and read!
Packerpasty
December 18, 2023 at 05:56 pm
links or sources? Or was it someones cousin sweeping floors at the Tundra Lodge??
Tundraboy
December 18, 2023 at 07:23 pm
Hey, that's my job!
Packers0808
December 19, 2023 at 10:48 am
Told you in original post was on MSN. Look it up easy to find!
Qoojo
December 18, 2023 at 12:29 pm
I only found articles pointing to him staying the rest of the year. Although MLF did have one strange reply "looking into solutions" that could be interpreted to mean JB is gone.
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 03:05 pm
Yeah, I don't think any HC in a presser--when asked by the media--has said, "I'm going to walk into the locker room and fire his ass right now."
dobber
December 18, 2023 at 02:05 pm
If it hasn't happened by the end of the day today (Monday) it ain't happenin' this week.
stockholder
December 18, 2023 at 04:33 pm
Packers wire stated MLF sticking with
Barry till the end of the season.
THAT IS THE PLAN!
Tundraboy
December 18, 2023 at 07:24 pm
From the man who seldom has the right one.